Beyond the Reformer

The Truth About Pilates Cueing Nobody Talks About with Shelly Power

• Nic Lenny

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"We're not gonna cue muscles to cue a movement."

In this episode, Nic is joined by Shelly Power, Director of Curriculum for Polestar Pilates and one of the most respected educators in the industry. Shelly has been teaching Pilates since 1992, has led teacher trainings since 2000, and has examined and mentored Pilates teachers all over the world, including Nic herself.

They explore why great teaching has no finish line, and why the best Pilates instructors stay curious long after they're certified. Shelly breaks down why cueing individual muscles ("tighten your core," "shoulders down") often works against the body instead of for it, and shares the story of a professional ballet soloist whose chronic knee pain disappeared the moment her cueing changed.

They also get into the current state of the Pilates industry: the "trickle down" effect that turns founders' teaching into rigid dogma a few generations later, the pressure of the online "Pilates police," and why rushing to defend a method matters far less than actually helping the person in front of you.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro to Shelly Power

04:17 The "trickle down theory" of Pilates dogma

13:31 Teaching without shame: the "climb a tree" story

17:05 Nic's exam story and what it means to be an empowering teacher

29:57 Belief over anatomy: the ballet soloist's knee pain

48:55 Why we need to stop cueing muscles to cue a movement

1:17:56 Curiosity, beginner's mind, and Shelly's closing advice

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SPEAKER_00

Coming up on this week's episode of Beyond the Reformer. I'm joined by Shelly Power. People refer to what I teach in my studio as classical, which the classical instructors are getting quite cross about. And it's confusing.

SPEAKER_01

There's some word that gets put around, and everybody has their own interpretation of it. And then everybody starts fighting.

SPEAKER_00

And I've spent £95, and all we've done is roll-ups for an hour. I walked out. I went, what a waste of money.

SPEAKER_01

That is a much stronger predictor of being able to do things than strength and range of motion. The belief is really strong. Can you live with it? That has served me very well.

SPEAKER_00

Exploring the big wide world of Pilates. Before we jump into today's conversation, if you're enjoying this podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you take a moment to follow, subscribe, wherever you're listening or watching. We're on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, all the podcast platforms. Every follow, rating, and review really does help more people discover our conversations and also helps me keep bringing you this podcast for free. So I really appreciate you doing that. Now I'm really excited to introduce this week's guest because today's conversation feels like one I've been wanting to have for a very long time. Shelly Power is one of the leading educators. She's over at Polestar Pilates, and she spent decades teaching, mentoring, and developing Pilates teachers all over the world. What I love about Shelly isn't just how much she knows, it's the way that she thinks and can inspire us to think better. Shelly actually was the person who examined me during my Polestar assessment many years ago. Like so many people, I remember walking to that exam feeling so nervous. But what has stayed with me, and I've shared this story many times with my own students, is how supported I felt. She just has this wonderful ability to challenge you, but whilst also making you feel like she genuinely wants you to succeed. And I've never forgotten that. More recently, I actually spent some time together with her in Los Angeles at an event there. And again, I went to one of her classes and I found myself really inspired by the way she approaches teaching. There was actually this moment where somebody questioned something that she was teaching. And rather than defend herself, she just kind of asked, like, why do you think that? And we're going to talk about that a little bit more today. And really that's what gave me some ideas to put together today's conversation. What is it about curiosity? It's something that I talk to my students about quite a lot. Who says this is how we should do it? How do we become teachers who don't just collect knowledge and repeat it, but actually ask better questions throughout our careers? Today we're going to talk about movement anatomy observation. What makes an exceptional Pilates teacher? And why perhaps the greatest skill we can develop is just staying curious and being open. I absolutely loved this conversation. So let's get into it. Shelly, thank you so much for joining me on Beyond the Reformer today.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I'm so happy to be with you. I've been seeing so many of the episodes, and it's like, I'm I'm ready, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00

Let's do it. You know, it just we started talking about this in January. At the time of recording, it's July, which I think says a lot about your schedule. And I literally see you, Shelly, all over the world. And I thought we would start there, really, in that, you know, you've spent decades studying movement, teaching movement, educating now about movement, and you still to seem as curious as ever. What is it about Pilates that fascinates you and keeps you excited all these years in?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I just don't know that it's something you can master in the sense that you've learned it all and then now you stop. I mean, it there's so much personal growth that can happen, just me as a mover, you know, forget the teaching part of it, like teaching clients or teaching teachers, just my own body and how it changes, how some things become a little easier, some things like, oh, I've got to work a little harder to make this happen now because I haven't done it for a while. And I think there is there is a lot of room for growth. And the idea of mastery is not, it doesn't have an end. Like you're maybe mastering little parts of it here and there, but then you've got to turn your attention here. And and that's the same, I think, with teaching. The more different clients that I see, the more different classes, the more I work with people in our teacher training. There's always room for, always room for growth.

SPEAKER_00

I think for me, that's what I've always loved the most about it, is that you never finish learning. And I find that really, really exciting. And I know we're going to talk a lot today about your work as an educator and the world of Pilates that's out there. And what do you think then in all that world of you know teaching people to be teachers, Shelly? What are we really trying to teach Pilates teachers to be? Do you think? You know, is it just about the repertoire?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, there there certainly is. And, you know, I I like I liken it to a pendulum. There's there's so many things, politics, healthcare, all the different things that we talk about. You know, there's this big pendulum. It swings one way, it swings the other way. And then there's there's a lot of time that it's in the in the middle. And that's kind of where I like to be. I I can see the edges, I see where things are going or where they're coming from. But I I still feel like there's this like middle ground that we that we play in. And so, yes, there is a certain amount of attention that needs to be put into the exercises. And I've heard recently some people like, oh, it's it's not at all about the exercises. Like, well, yes, it is. It is about the exercises, but I think it's what is your intention with them? What is your knowledge about them? And how are we using the exercises? It's not just about memorizing some exercises. I know the original classical order. Okay, well, what what does that mean? What does that mean for me as a teacher? How can I have a conversation with you about it or another teacher or my clients? Why is it the way it is? Why would I choose to do it differently? All of these things, there's there's context and there's layers and nuance. And I just don't think we can break it down to one piece of that puzzle. We have to, we have to look and kind of be curious around all of it and why, why we're doing it. So that's that kind of takes care of the the movement piece or the exercise piece, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think I've always sort of seen it as well as almost like there's to your point that you started with, that's why there's always more to learn because you're kind of you can come at this work from different places and different angles. And as you said, your own experience, whether that's ill health, injury, aging, you learn more about it and think, oh, actually, I could approach this differently now. And you know, there's times definitely in my life where I felt like I can load myself more, times where I'm more burnt out and I can approach this work completely differently, and it works with my nervous system. And I guess that leans into that's why this is a never-ending piece of learning.

SPEAKER_01

I think so. Well, I mean, from the stories that we hear from, you know, people who worked with Joe and Clara and, you know, it it wasn't one size fits all. I mean, really, if you if you talk to the people who who worked with them or the second generation that worked with the first generation people of, you know, Corolla and Romana and Kathy, Eve, you know, all of the different what we call first generation people, it wasn't it wasn't everybody just went in and did exactly the same thing. Maybe some of the same things. There's only so much choreography that we have and pieces of equipment, but you know, it was it was detailed a little bit for each person so that they got the the most out of it and really worked in their own bodies. I don't know where it changed to become so authoritative. I I sometimes think it's it's like the trickle-down theory. So when you have the people up at the top of a company, a body of work or whatever, and I see this with with Brent Anderson, you know, he takes a lot of liberty with what he wants to put out there in terms of theory and all these things. And but we have to write something down. It's like, okay, if you're a Polestar educator, you've got to teach these things. And then two or three generations down, you've got somebody who's so dogmatic about the this is what Brent once taught. This is what he, you know, said. Whereas Brent would never teach that way. So I kind of think maybe that's where, you know, if we could go back and again talk with a lot of the first generation teachers or talk with Joe. I don't think that's that's not where they were coming from at all, but it somehow kind of morphed into I have to represent them, you know, letter for letter. And maybe that's just kind of normal, you know, that just happens in in history. Kind of.

SPEAKER_00

And I found doing this podcast, I've learned so much about exactly what you've just said, in that Joe very much taught the person in front of him, actually. That's the message I've heard, which could be very different from, you know, classical Pilates' romanas usually style. And there were others, and there are, and I just it's it it it it's an interesting point to bring up. And I I've talked about it a few times, Shelly where when I did my training with Polestar, we considered ourselves, as far as I understood, contemporary in that it wasn't in the order, but it still had the exercises, it still had the ethos, but we'd, you know, you had created, you'd looked at more modern science and you'd kind of brought that in. But we could play with the order and we could play with some of the ways we taught it. Now, contemporary seems to mean something quite different, more of the dynamic, more fitness-y type base. And now people refer to what I teach in my studio as classical, which now the classical instructors are getting quite cross about and it's confusing.

SPEAKER_01

Let's make sure we put a lot of labels on things, right? That's that's I wish we could. I mean, you have to be able to describe things and these labels, because if you talk to the people who worked with Romana, right? I've heard Brett Howard uh many times, um, Amy and Rachel, different people who who worked with her, she was not, she was very accommodating and worked with each of them differently. Like, and this is what I think. It's like there's some word that gets put around and everybody has their own interpretation of it. And then everybody starts fighting. It's like, wait, wait, wait, we're not even talking, we're not even fighting about the same thing. We're not even talking about the same thing. Let's take a breath, step back, and figure out first, what are we, what are we discussing here? And can we actually talk about the the the nuts and bolts of it, right? The the content rather than getting stuck in a title or immediately being triggered by something. And I think we as a society, you know, we get triggered by everything, a brand of something, again, religion, politics, all the things. Somebody says one word and you're like, oh, and everybody's, you know, up in arms about it. But if you can stop for a moment, and one of the one of the phrases we use often in Polstar, the Stephen Covey, you know, seek first to understand. Maybe take a breath, see what the person's talking about, and realize you probably have more in common. And we can then be curious and say, ah, tell me more about that. I want to know what your background was working with Romana or Eve or whoever, whoever that Ron, you know, it's I think some patience would do as good as a community.

SPEAKER_00

We're definitely going to delve deeper into that. I'd love, though, Shelly, to understand, for those who don't know you, a little bit more about you. Tell me a little bit about your journey to becoming the Shelly that we know today, running education all over the world. Like, where did, you know, how did movement come into your life? Where did Pilates come into your life?

SPEAKER_01

Movement early, you know, six years old or so. I was, you know, taking some, you know, kid dance classes, ballet classes. I got into gymnastics and I also swam competitively. And as I got older, went through kind of middle schools, like gymnastics became less interesting, a little scarier. I could do a full revolution, like a front flip, backflip. And it's like, oh, I have to do more than that. Yeah, I'm not. I can't, I don't think I can do that. But I continued dancing and, you know, eventually got into a dance company, kind of a semi-professional dance company in in Sacramento, California. And that's where I met Brent. And he had finished his physio training and had come back to Sacramento and wanted to work and had already worked with performing artists, and he was a musician and dancer. And he came to our dance company one night and did a lecture demonstration about Pilates. And we did a mat class. And I can remember at the time thinking, yeah, I mean, it was fun. It was movement, it was interesting, challenging, but it didn't, I didn't connect with it right away. And I actually then now I look back on things that I did then and and I actually did the hundred uh and probably some other mat exercises when I was about 12 or 13 years old, working with another different company. And she would have us lie on the floor. And all I like many people remember that, you know, like when you're 12 years old, you're just lying on the floor and you're, you know, moving your arms up and down. And, you know, time went on and we were colleagues, and I uh I had an injury. And I was like, uh-oh, I need to, I need to find somebody. And that's when I went to Brent as a physio. And it was just kind of one thing after another of, hey, I need people to teach Pilates. And I said, well, okay. And he said, you know, would you like to? And I'm like, well, yes, but I don't know what Pilates is really. And he says, Don't worry, I'll train you. And it was that moment of where a lot of people were still doing apprentice style teacher training because that's all that there was. And it was invaluable that I could go to Brent. He would say, Okay, here's my patient and my physioclinic. I want you to do this exercise and this exercise. I was like, Don't stray, don't be creative, don't do anything, do this. Like, okay. And I did that. And then, you know, slowly had more and more and more autonomy until he would say, like, this is, you know, Beverly, you know, go for it. And we we worked that way. So uh that was that was kind of how I got into it. But it didn't, it didn't um well, I didn't understand it enough, I think, in the very beginning to really be attracted to it. But then once I got into it, it was like I think it's often an injury, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

I think I think it's quite interesting today because people are coming into it for different reasons. But there was there's been a long time where injury, myself included, and I think what I think anyway, personally, is that sometimes an injury makes you think, I'm I've got to approach this differently. And I think a lot of people can find Pilates done in the way that you teach and I teach, they don't really get it straight away, actually, because it's not necessarily like anything they know. And it can feel a little uncomfortable, maybe. I don't know. I think that was probably my story. It slowed me down. I wasn't used to slowing down and having to notice what was going on in my body.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. Many people aren't. They have they've never done that before. And I think one of the one of the things that I, you know, when people say, you know, what is what is one of the, I don't know, like pet peeves or or something like that, is when I hear people who say, Oh, I tried Pilates once. It was so hard, I couldn't do it. The teacher was so strict, or the teacher did this or that. And I just think, oh my gosh, you had the wrong teacher. There's a difference of it being challenging. Heck yeah. You know, you're you're doing all this movement and coordination and thinking about it and moving. Maybe it's a little bit of a strength or endurance, you know, that's fine. That's okay. But if it's so hard that you can't physically do what the teacher is asking you to do, you need to find a different teacher because that is I I've never run into any Pilates teacher, you know, worth their, you know, worth their salt that that would, you know, agree with that. That that's just not okay. We can't shame people because they don't know how to do it. It's our job to teach them.

SPEAKER_00

It's funny because I was in a this was a few months ago, and one of my marketing teams showed me a picture of, you know, we're all trying to get men to come to Pilates because actually when the men come, they love it actually, and they stay, but sometimes they need a bit of help kind of coming off, unless their wife, girlfriend, sister tracks them, it seems to be. So they were saying my marketing team were like, Oh, I've seen this video, and it was of all these men who'd come to Pilates and they were kind of going, Oh my god, I didn't know it was so hard. And at the end I was like, No, I'm not doing that because that's because they couldn't do it, they were doing it really badly. I've been known to say, and it's funny hearing you say it so eloquently, if it's hard, it's because you can't do it, but that doesn't mean I don't challenge somebody. You know, it's a it's a fine balance, isn't it? And I think sometimes that's quite misunderstood, Shelly.

SPEAKER_01

It is. I remember, and this will stand out in my mind forever, of like like things that I've been exposed to, is like, oh, I really want to gravitate toward that. I want to be a teacher like that person. And there are those moments where you think, I don't ever want to teach like this person. And it was quite a number of years ago, long time ago, woman teaching in her studio, and there was a guy, he was quite overweight, and sitting on the box getting ready to do climate tree. This person had about as much, you know, need to do climate tree as, you know, like it was why pick that exercise? And this kind of goes back to our conversation before of like give the person something that they need. Not that he couldn't do climate tree, but maybe he just holds his knee to his chest. He doesn't need to be straightening his leg. The poor man, I thought he was gonna have a stroke. He was holding his breath. You know, it was like this horrible thing. And she just kept berating him of how badly he was doing. It's like this is just so not appropriate. And I and I, that was one of the one of the things very influential early on that it's like, I'm not gonna teach like that. I will give people challenging movements, but I'm gonna make sure that they can be successful within that.

SPEAKER_00

And then we can modify it any way we need to. And I think I I often talk to people like, how do we set people up for success? I want them to be able to do it. And it then helps with your class programming because it's not just a random set of exercises put together. It's it's taking you on a journey somewhere. And even if the challenge is a little bit too great for you, then at least you've met it, you've figured it out that maybe you're not quite there yet. But hopefully you feel empowered to go, okay, I'm gonna come back next week and I'm gonna look at that again. Instead of, I feel passionate about how we don't want people to feel any more of a failure than they might already feel in other parts of their life. Like, how can we empower them?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. And it was almost like the worse he did, the better she felt, the teacher. And I just thought, no, I'm not doing that. So it is, and and and sometimes we don't push enough. Sometimes we assume, oh, this person's older or they have an injury and they can't do much. And so we really babel baby them and we don't give them very challenging movements. So in the moment, we need to have all of those tools in our back pocket. It's like, okay, let's see what we can do. Let's see, let's go another, okay, let's do a little bit more. And you keep going. And often you surprise yourself of how much your clients can do. And then you reach that limit. It's like, okay, we're successful. And, you know, yeah, you're gonna be a little sore tomorrow and all of those things, but we're not, we're really taking them on a journey, which I think is important.

SPEAKER_00

You actually, I don't know if you remember, but you did my pole star exam. And I I've mentioned this story a few times to people because when they're doing their exams, and I thought I'd share it because I was so nervous like everyone else's. I was like in the bathrooms putting like rescue remedy on my tongue, like everyone told me to do. I'd never had it before. I was probably high as a kite doing it, you know, doing power women poses and all the things. And you know what my overwhelming sort of memory from that day was how much I enjoyed it, Shelley. And that's why I want to share it. Is I really enjoyed my exam. And it it made me, you it very much felt like you were there to pass me, like you wanted me to succeed. Exactly what you're saying. And I just wondered like, is that how you feel? Like when you're working with teachers, with students, with clients, like, where does that come from? That kind of need to be like, no, I'm here to empower you to do the best you can do.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I it's funny when you said, you know, where where did you come from and what was your you know, movement background and how did you get here? And and if you ask anybody that knew me when I was maybe in high school or, you know, just out of high school, I was so shy, so shy. I wouldn't talk to anybody. I remember one time I was helping at Balanced Body, it was probably still current concepts at the time, and Ken needed some people to help answer phones. And Brent said, Oh, well, why don't you go? Okay, I'll go. And I remember thinking, well, what if somebody asks me a question that I can't answer? And I was so nervous. And now I could go answer the phone anywhere. You know, I'm not quite sure. Let me find out. What's your name? What's the best number to reach you? I can do all of that now at the time. I was so nervous. And so I never want to put somebody in that position where you ask them a question and it's to see if they, you know, it's like, I bet you can't answer this. No, no, no. I'm gonna ask you a question because I genuinely want and need to know if you know the answer. And then I'm gonna try to make it as uh the the the least amount of stress that I can because this happens all the time in the classroom. Also, okay, who knows so such and such piece of information? And somebody will will answer. And it's not really, it's not even not what I'm looking for. It's just it's not right. So I have a couple of choices. I can say, Well, no, that's wrong. I don't know, go back and read your you know book, or I can I can say, Well, you Know, okay, I can see where you're coming from on that. That's not that's not really how it works. It works like this, and da-da-da. And then we go on. Because I don't ever want to make somebody feel embarrassed. I don't want them to feel, you know, less than. And they know they didn't know it. Now they have something to work on. And, you know, that happens in the exam too. I mean, sometimes you ask people, it's like, what's your name? Um uh Shelly. Like you don't even remember your own name. So if we can make it a little bit more pleasurable experience, I think we can get more out of people. And that's that's one of the things that I I try to do anyway when I'm working with students anytime, anywhere.

SPEAKER_00

And I think it's such a, you know, it's the way to do it. I remember, I think I in my exam, I can't remember why I went off piste on something and then you asked to see me and you asked me loads of questions, and I knew the answers, which was good. And then when you wrote my report afterwards, you were like, you really knew this stuff. You actually gave me a really good mark because in a weird way, by me going off piste, it allowed you to ask me some good questions, and I was able to answer them and in a different kind of format. And it's nice, you know, and I love that approach actually of you know, you were here, it was a celebration of the two and a half years of work I'd done as opposed to like not, and I very much felt that. I very much felt that not trying to trip me up, which I think it and it kind of leans into the teachers trying to trip clients up or the educator trying to trip up a student. Like, why do we do that? It's not helpful.

SPEAKER_01

I I just don't have enough, I don't have enough energy to do that. Like I'm I'm doing my best just to be here to try to make it more challenging and less, you know, less pleasurable. Like, who does that? I it doesn't to me, it doesn't make any sense. So I want if if you're nervous, I I'm probably not gonna get out of you what I want, but I will, and we laugh about that, you know. Like we have all of our sayings, like, you know, behind the scenes. It's like, if you know it, I will get it out of you. I also know, having done this for a zillion years, I know when you don't know it. And that's okay. You don't know this. Let's go back. Here's the plan, let's study, and you'll come back and you'll you'll be able to know it. Memorizing doesn't work most of the time. I mean, it does a little bit, but you know, it's it doesn't provide for really lifelong learning. And and I can tell my my my sense, my spidey senses are pretty, are pretty good of yes, you actually know this. I just need to ask you in a different way or in a different moment. And and if you don't know it, we'll we'll work on it together.

SPEAKER_00

It reminds me, Shelley, what you just said of I was working with some students and I was using the analogy of, you know, your kids, your kids do this all the time. So my kids will say something like, Mom, can you do blah, blah, blah, blah? And I haven't understood what they said. I said, I'm so sorry. Tell me again. And they just repeat it word for word. And they go, No, no, I heard you. I just didn't understand what you said. Can you explain? And they're still young, so they haven't figured this out, and then they end up crying and running off. But you see teachers do that a lot, don't you? Where they're using the same cues over and over again. So it's even interesting hearing how you are examining people with the same idea in mind. Like, I'm not going to keep asking you the same way, but maybe if I frame it a little bit different or phrase it differently, it might trigger something in your brain. And I guess for clients, it's the same, isn't it? It's having that toolbox of cues to be able to see what's going on, realize people haven't got it, but then say it differently. And you definitely see that now, don't you? Where people maybe haven't had the time to learn this work. They've done a shorter course. And so they haven't had the time. It's that's just that's just the route they've gone down. But then it's allowing them maybe some space to realize, have some different ways of framing things because you'll get the most out of people, won't you?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And and, you know, the it's a very hot topic right now. I mean, it actually has been for 20 years of these shorter trainings that people get into. And people get very upset about, oh, it's not enough, it's not the right way. You know what? It's the way they got into it. It's fine. It's not enough, but it's fine. Let them, if they're safe, they have a little bit of knowledge, right? It's their first step. Let's encourage them to continue to be lifelong learners, to do some quality, you know, continuing education and really to just, as you say, spend time teaching because that is one of the greatest teachers, right? Is just getting in and doing it, being a little bit curious and being open to not memorizing. And we, we, you know, what we laugh, you know, in the background, you know, as as teachers do. It's like, you know, somebody wants to know, you know, well, what's the well, what's the cue for that movement? Like, I don't know. I haven't seen who's doing it yet. So we have to have all, like you said, all of those, all of those different ways to to communicate with people, to, you know, it's also, you know, culturally, culturally, it's different. I work with a lot of students in different countries, and English is not their primary language. The way we describe things is different. So again, a little bit of patience and empathy, I think can go a long, a long way. I'll keep, I'll probably always come back to that.

SPEAKER_00

I I get I'll have a conversation like this with someone like you, and I'll inevitably get lots of messages where somebody might start to realize, oh, actually, my training isn't enough. And actually, that's why I did this podcast initially, anyway. It was very much to be like, let's just open our eyes and no judgment. But I did a long course and I'm still an F you know, lifelong learner. You are leading one of the biggest courses in the world, and you're still a lifelong learner. So it's just to kind of open people's minds up. But it got me thinking, Shelly, I saw you at an event recently and it was really interesting. I felt like your so this was an event for teachers, and your workshop in the workshops I went to anyway, was quite different. So lots of the workshops were very lots of choreography, lots of ideas, lots of new, new, new, new, new. And I don't know if I was just very jet-lagged, but it just it didn't make me feel so good if I'm honest. It didn't, okay? It didn't. And then I went to yours and it was quite different. And it was looking at stuff that we knew, really, kind of stuff that you would expect most people to know. But looking at how could we help people do it better? And I loved it. And even though we didn't do that much movement in the club, you know, we would do stuff and try it, I felt it really, I said this to you afterwards, like I was like, this makes me feel so good about myself. But what I noticed, Shelly, was, and it kind of leans into some of these trainings that we're talking about, long or short, but you had quite quite a lot of pushback. I was quite surprised where people being like, but why is it like this? And but I thought it was like this. And what was interesting is you didn't go on the defensive, and now knowing you, you wouldn't do that. That's not who you are. And you nearly always asked very diplomatically, well, why do you think that? And I just wondered kind of have you honed that approach to just be curious and to get people thinking? But it also is what I see on the internet a lot, especially in the last few weeks, people being very dogmatic about it. Can only be this way. And it kind of leads into what we talked about earlier. But do you see that come up in these kind of events and forums where you're teaching people who've maybe done trainings elsewhere?

SPEAKER_01

Not as much as I did in that particular workshop, which I think is so interesting. And, you know, it's an opportunity for me also to learn. Because if there is another reason that I'm not aware of, I have to practice my own, you know, curiosity and all of that. Maybe there is some reason that you're doing that and I don't know about it. I don't know everything. I I'm far from knowing everything. And maybe that's also what I lean into is like, tell me more about that. Why is that? Why do you think that? And what I'm hoping not to hear is, well, that's how I learned it or that's how it's done. And I still want to say, well, why? Why is that? Because I want to learn. If there's more information out there, I would like to, I would like to know it and be able to help, you know, more people. I do realize that quite often it the answer is, well, because that's how I, that's how I learned it, it has to be that way. And it's almost like people don't they don't practice that, but they say it like they teach it that way, but they don't do it that way themselves. And one of the things was lying down just on the reformer, getting ready for footwork. And there's, you know, and and it's also subtlety and gray areas of, you know, you know, the the layers of things, pushing the arms down into the mat. And one of the people said, Well, she's not pushing her arms down enough. And I said, Well, how do you know that? And she couldn't say, but she wasn't pushing down enough. And I said, Well, lie on the floor, you know, or whatever, you know, lie on the reformer and let's look, like really push. What does that do? If you push a lot, you're gonna lift your body off the mat, off the reformer carriage. And it was as if she had never gone that next step of actually doing what she was saying. She knew it, she had it. She was probably pushing in a way that gave her this really nice width and just connection through her body. But the way she was describing it was create an extension moment in her in her torso. And it's those things that just like just think about what you're saying and how maybe it's still good and valid, but you need to temper it a little bit or you need to, I don't know, put something, you need to layer something else into it because what you're creating is probably not exactly what you wanted.

SPEAKER_00

So I sometimes have to, you know, talk to people and it's hard to sometimes explain it, isn't it? But say it's not that a cue is ever necessarily wrong, but you've got to think about does that to your point, does that give them the outcome? Is that what you're looking for? And they're like, oh no, I'm not looking for that. And I someone was having a conversation with me the other day. She's a she's a very, very experienced pole star Pilates teacher. She's also a very experienced PT, as in personal trainer. And she was talking about this working with this trainer in the gym who would be queuing like squat series, and it would all be about spreading the sitting bones and letting everything go wide and all of this beautiful kind of language and very, you know, very anatomically correct and all the rest of it. And she was this other person was a Pilates teacher. And so she went to her class, and the first thing she said was zip and hollow. And she kind of queried after said, Well, well, why did you care? She goes, Well, this is Pilates, and that's what we say. And she was like, But why? She goes, Well, I got told that in Pilates, this is what you have to do. And it's to realize anatomy is just anatomy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

And movement is just movement. I mean, but this goes into things that go beyond and that we happen to talk about are things like belief. So in Pilates, I do it this way. I had the great time teaching with the Dutch national ballet set up by one of our educators in Amsterdam. And I did a dance workshop, you know, always good to teach a dance workshop to professional, like soloists in a ballet company. You know, my gosh, what am I doing here? And we did this whole thing, and they're talking about teaching teachers and teaching students and all the stuff and what's important. And at the very end, okay, great. I hope you all had a nice time, you know, or any any any questions to finish up with. One of the soloists, I believe she was a soloist, raised her hand and said, Every time I do a plie, a grand plie, so a full squat, my knee hurts. What can you do about it? And inside, I'm like, oh my God, we were having such a good time. We're almost finished. And you had to ask me this. What am I going to say? What am I going to do? Had so much self-doubt in that moment. Kind of spun it around. I was like, Well, you're here. You got to answer. So let's pull something out. And we did all the bone rhythm work, how the femur moves and the pelvis and da-da-da. And everybody stood up. We did it. We tried it the kind of not so good way, then we tried it a better way. She went down into her full squat or her full um Grandflier. She had no knee pain, none. Zero. And she came back up. And of course, it's that surprised look of wait a second, what just happened? I've been dancing for how many? And she was an older dancer. She was probably in her 30s, you know, much, much older than a lot of professional, you know, like soloists and ballet companies. And one of the younger dancers said, Oh, this is great. We can teach this in the school because the ballet school is producing, you know, potentially these dancers are going to go out and and be professional ballet dancers. And the the soloist, she looked over, she says, Well, no, you can't. And we all kind of why, yes. If we just teach them to let their thighs spiral this way and their sip bones widen, they're never going to be put in this position to have all these stresses on the knee, the foot, the ankle, the hip. And she says, Well, no, because that's not how it's done. And it's the same thing. Belief is so strong. Fear of having pain, fear of doing something because I'm not going to be able to complete it. I believe I just can't do it. That is a much stronger predictor of being able to do things or not do things than strength and range of motion and all of those things. The belief is really strong.

SPEAKER_00

So, how do you think we foster curiosity in ourselves as teachers?

SPEAKER_01

I think we have to just be open to doing things different ways. Because if you if you always do something the same way, you're going to get that same thing every single time. So maybe you do it behind closed doors, right? You change the springs, you change the intention, you change something about it, change the load, change the the cue that you might give and see what happens and play the contrast game. So if we're looking for efficiency, do something with a lot of muscular effort. What is that like? Okay, now do it with very little muscular effort. What's that like? Now, where can you meet in the middle and make a decision based on the load you have to manage or the movement that you're doing, whatever it is? And just when you have such a really strong belief, can you change it? Can you can you go about it in a different way and see what happens? See what, see what you get out of that because you're either gonna like how it is or you don't, but you have to be open to it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

And I think sometimes that's why it's good to even go to, you know, sometimes when I'm at these conferences, I actually deliberately sometimes try and go to stuff that's not what I would normally be drawn to. Like I'm curious about it. And sometimes something surprises me or I'm like, really love that, or I've taken that away. But other times it allows me just to feel more certain in my beliefs in movement and the way that I teach. And, you know, and I and I think that's it, isn't it? Is to be curious and to be, but there's no, I don't, I I I'm not detrimental to that. I'm like, it just wasn't for me. But I can see why other people might like it. You know, it's I'm very open.

SPEAKER_01

And and and I think that is, it's one of the so when we uh were working on the certification exam at different times we had, you know, they'd come get some committees together to work on writing questions or all the different things that go into the process of creating or maintaining a an accredited exam. And the psychometrician, the gentleman who came in to help and facilitate all of our meetings, he would just simply say, because we'd be like, oh, you can't, we're all fighting against each other, you know, you can't ask that. That's not right. And he's like, look, look, can you live with it? Okay. You know, if you can live with it, it's fine. Can you live with it? I that that has served me very well. Yeah. And I I know you you we had talked about like in Pilates, who, you know, what advice, you know, have I been given? And I think his advice was some of the best advice I ever got years ago of can you live with it? Okay. Person's not gonna hurt themselves, you know, it's okay. Can you live with it? Yes. All right, move on. Fight, fight a, fight a different battle, you know, that really is more worth it.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. Shelly, you regularly appear on the Pilates hour. So it's an hour, you know, there'll often be different interviews on there, but you often are on there and you'll be doing a deep dive into usually one exercise. And not many people I think could talk about the Swan or the roll-up for an hour. And I'm just curious as to kind of what goes into your mind and what are you thinking? And and how do you find that that empowers people to, you know, look at movement more than here's a roll-up and here's a few ideas, 10 minutes done. And you're like, no, let's let's let's investigate it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think a lot of it is the foundation of it was working for Brent for many, many years in his physio, in his physio clinic. And we had people with every different pathology, condition, whatever. We had we had basic orthopedic stuff, we had neurological stuff, we had people with amputations, we had uh people who had neurologic disease, like Parkinson's and and MS, and you know, spinal cord injuries, everything. And from that early age, I had to figure out how do I how can I create a situation where the person can get the essence of what the exercise is, but they can't do it in the traditional way. What can I get them to do? So it made me look at the movements of like, okay, yes, here's footwork. Is there any other benefit to footwork than just kind of pushing back and forth a bunch of times? What can I gain from that? And I think from there, that made me open my eyes to, okay, let's look at all the ways that we could get something out of an exercise. So what is it and how is it connected? And I don't have a drawing now and I won't take time to do it, but I'm often the one who's like, hold up your manual. You know, here's a here's a picture of, you know, like the swan, right? You see the curved body. Okay, now what is it? It's grasshopper. Now what is it? You're hanging up, you know, on the trap. And now what is it? It's swan on the ladder barrel. And I don't know how many people I'll show that to. And it's like, like they've never thought of swan on one piece of apparatus and one orientation to the ground in a different place with a different orientation or upside down. They never put it together that those things are related. And they are, right? And they're different and they're related. And so how do we, how do we do that? I that comes in a lot. What's needed? What again, thinking at like more concept level, if we're thinking of things like pathology, I'm not trying to remember all the exercises are contraindicated for osteoporosis, like osteoporosis flexion. Okay, well, that that was simple, right? I don't do flexion, I'll do something else. And so, yeah, I just try to try to get people to be curious and to see how things are related. And, you know, I I hope I say it frequently enough that, you know, this is only one way you could think about there's a you could do another hour on it. You know, Ron Fletcher, I think, you know, I and people will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but uh, you know, talked about you should be able to do footwork for an hour. Like you should, you should be able to do these things and discover and compare and contrast and you know, so I I'm just trying to get people to to get into that mode. And this is not the only answer, you know, it's just what can we do?

SPEAKER_00

And I think in my journey to becoming a qualified teacher, you often go through a lot of privates yourself to get your body to a position to be able to do stuff. And actually, what you realize is, and you're often lucky enough in that journey to get privates with some of the greats in the world because you're kind of you've got access to them, and you're so right. You know, I I remember many a time going, I've just spent 95 pounds and all we've done is roll-ups for an hour. But but and I walk and I I'll be, I'm always honest. I walked out and went, what a waste of money. And then I start to feel these changes in my body, changes in my knowledge, realizing how we've come at things differently. And whenever I find myself still 17 years later, bringing back some of these ideas, and since then I've added to them myself, I'll have a little chuckle inside and went, Do you remember that time you thought that was an absolute waste of money? And here you are, still banging out the same ideas and something, you know. And it's really interesting, and it goes back to how do we teach real life people in front of us? And that's kind of, I guess you were you were given that at a deep level with all those people. But of course, all human beings have stuff, like none of us move perfectly, even that, you know, that ballerina who was a soloist was still having challenges. So when we think of our observation skills, what what how can we look at somebody? I mean, you know, what I often think like, what's the first thing that moves? Does that help me understand things? Like, what are your kind of tips for because the observation takes a long time and I'm still not there 15 years in, and some people are better, but it I don't think anyone comes out qualified, brilliant at it yet. But what are your tips for getting better at observing so that you can then think, oh, what else or what might else might I give you instead of this exercise?

SPEAKER_01

I think what do you want out of it? So, yes, you're gonna teach a reformer class, you're gonna probably start with footwork, and there's you know, there's kind of a a process to a session, right? That that's fine. And within that, for this person or this class, why are you doing this exercise? So we're all gonna start with footwork. We don't have to, we could do whatever we want. But let's say we are what do I want out of that? So that's one thing I I I need to know that because I I I don't know what to look for if I don't know what I want. Is it there? Is it not there? And then I kind of like you said, like, where is there movement? Where do I want movement to happen? Where do I need control to happen? And control's been very misunderstood. Is this like this really stiff? No, just a part that's not moving, a part that's moving. Is that happening? If it's not, what can I do about it? And sometimes it's as simple as saying, you know, keep your, I don't know, they're they're arching their back when they straighten their knees. Keep your ribs lightly against the mat. Oh, okay. They they just need to be told. I just that doesn't require a lot. Keep your ribs down. Okay. Sometimes keep your ribs down. It's like, I can't, I don't know how to, right? And then you do something else, prop the head up, do these things. I think striving to have this perfect movement is is a gigantic waste of time because it's not how we function in daily life. Juan Nieto often will bring up the long distance runners, the like ultra marathon runners, and you watch a lot of the their technique. And a lot of them are running barefoot. And if you slow it down and you analyze every little, you know, is their foot in the perfect amount of pronation and supination? And did they roll and did this and that? Oh, it's a hot mess. It's horrible. They can run forever, right? In these, you know, why have we thought that, oh, I have to sit and everything has to be perfect? Just it's just not normal. Could it be pretty good or better? Right? Yes, of course. We can we can make those changes. So I think one is set yourself up for success of not trying to make everything perfect. Let that go. Figure out what you want. And are you seeing it? And how do you get it? Those would be those would be some of the the things that I think. And and just give people information. A lot of times they don't know how to do stuff because they don't know how to do it yet. It's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_00

Just teach them how to do it. But I think it's the teach them, isn't there? And it's it's less of the don't arch your back. Well, what do they need to do to not arch their back? Because I remember for my whole life pre-being taught by you guys, don't rise your shoulders up. But I didn't then I would sort of pull them and force them down. That didn't really help me either. So it's it's we often have this narrative, and our head is saying, Oh, don't do that. And then I always try and teach people, like, well, how does what come out of your mouth be the what I want you to do then? And then if you can't do it back to what I said about, you know, my kids, then say it a different way. Give them some other information, or like you said, regress it, you know, lift their head up, change a spring. And I think, but I think that takes time, Shelly, doesn't it? And it goes back to you need time in your craft. This is not about what course you did or didn't do, but you need time and your craft to be able to play with this work and understand it.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And and I think it is a little bit, I mean, we at least I in my courses, and I'm teaching a brand new group of students right now, that I often I haven't done, I haven't been in this role for a little while of teaching people who are just entering in or maybe done a short training and they're they're moving forward. And because I'm used to working with people who are more trained and are faculty and that. And it is, though, about opening up those little, like those little moments of let's just watch this person move. What do you notice? Oh, I noticed this. And we can, I think we can, we can move the process along a little bit more. Because if you're taught just memorize this and this is how it is, and then later you've got to change it, that's tough too. So from the very beginning, look at the person. How are they? Let's look at like general alignment of body parts to one another. Can they move? Great, let's go. Can you make it better on the way? Yes. Will the movement make it better? Sometimes you don't have to say anything, just let them do it a few times. Oh, now they've figured out how to do it. And I think we can I think we can as teachers in teacher training. I think we can open that that window a little bit more for people to have that curiosity and just take the time to look. And then when they don't know, right, that's that moment. It's like, I just can you come and help me? I'm not sure what I'm seeing here. Yes, this is, you know, I think we can.

SPEAKER_00

I I just ran a weekend six of a comprehensive course and I hadn't got an assistant. They were sick that day. And so, but I thought it's fine because these are they, you know, they're six months in. And actually, I'm gonna make it this way in future. I actually had all the students demo, which is how I did it back in the day, actually, that it wasn't assistance then. And to your point, I realized that it was really good because I sort of naturally was kind of saying, like, what are you seeing? Like, what could we do differently here? And we get our students to teach every weekend from the module before, which is horrendously uncomfortable at the beginning, but then they get used to it. And and I'm like, Well, if you're learning to be a teacher, let's practice being teachers because you know I didn't really do that, and then it's quite scary when you first have to do it. But I hadn't really thought of that, and that's really helped me actually think, as well as coaching the teacher on how they might have approached it, it's also maybe to be asking the room on the person who's demoing it, saying, What are you seeing? Because you're absolutely right. That is something it just takes practice to kind of see and and not feel like you know, at the beginning, you're like, Did I see that? Didn't I see that? Should I say that? You know, going back to feeling shy and nervous and maybe I'm gonna say the wrong thing. So I love that idea.

SPEAKER_01

It's and it's very much how we teach now. I don't know that other how other schools teach, but certainly in in just regular education, university education, I don't know if it's in like primary and you know, secondary school as well. This idea of the reverse classroom, right? You don't just show up now to a full-star course with your arms crossed and say, okay, I paid my money, teach me. That's not how it works. You have to do some bit ahead of time. You have to read something, you have to watch a video, you have to know these things. Because part of it is the repetition of learning, right? How, how would you do that again? What is this called? How many principles are there? Da-da-da-da. We ask these questions. Who are the first generation people? Everybody write down two first generation people. Oh, shoot. Who are the first generation people again? But you won't make that mistake a second time. You're gonna come back and be like, okay, what's she gonna ask? I'm ready. I got all these things. Oh, I forgot about this topic. I'm gonna go back now and review that. And as teachers, it's in combat as parents too, to keep, keep, keep going with that. They you have to be able to recall the information, or you really don't know it. And they call it the illusion of knowing. I think I know it. Oh, yeah, I know it. Tell me about it. Um you don't know it. You you really don't. So don't don't waste your time there. Like just keep rehearsing it.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. So one of the things I get asked a lot about, Shelly, is I'll have a conversation like this with you, or I'll do a solo episode, and I'll say something along the lines of, you know, I don't cue muscles engagement, and I get I get a lot of DMs about it. Do you where do you think our anatomy knowledge comes into what we do as Pilates teachers?

SPEAKER_01

Well, we are moving the body, right? We are asking bodies to move. And I think if we don't understand how the body is put together and the general movement patterns that we have and things like that, I I don't know how you could expect to really lead quality movement. Yes, you could say bend and straighten your knees, but what if somebody can't, you know, get all the way down to the floor and something, you know, they just it like we we need to know how the body moves so that we can a do cue it so it's something happens better, right? So their alignment's a little better, their movements easier, but also to make sure that we're not cueing in the opposite way, that's actually going to make something worse. And you mentioned the shoulders, you know, shoulders down, shoulders down. And I, you know, I've been cued so many times. Like, here's just me sitting naturally, you know, oh, shoulders down. I'm thinking, okay, how much, how much more down do they have to go? But if I'm giving that type of a cue when I'm reaching overhead, the moment I start to reach overhead and somebody tells me to put my shoulder down, if I really do that, right, I'm now changing the mechanics of my shoulder blade to my arm, which is not good. It could actually cause, you know, some impingement down the road, right? I'm not going to hurt somebody by saying that, but I'm not, I'm not giving them quality information that's going to help their body move better. Now I'm actually giving them information that is contrary to what should be happening. So we need to know it in that, in that level. But we don't like the nervous system, the brain, all of that, we don't, we don't process movement one muscle at a time. So there's so many things that are happening. For me to do a bicep curl, all right. I have something is stabilizing my trunk, my bicep is doing this, my tricep is lengthening, something's happening in the shoulder, you know, all these different things are happening. It's not physically possible for me to say all of those things at the same time. And some muscles are working preparatory, some muscles are the main movers, you know, all these things are happening. There's no way I can cue that. It just can't. So give things that the nervous system can figure out a task, you know, bring your hand to your shoulder. Great. All the things, the program in the back, it's like all the things that have to happen, is happening. And we don't need to, we don't need to do that. Doesn't mean we won't feel muscles. It won't, we we can certainly talk about muscles, but we're not gonna cue muscles to cue a movement.

SPEAKER_00

And of course, what I then get is, yeah, but what about the core and the glutes? It's always the core and the glutes. And what if I'm a teacher and I see that they haven't got as much core engagement as I would like them to have? What do I do then? I get this question. This I get this question almost every week. And I just, I mean, it's it's it's a long, it's usually quite a long answer to really go into depth with it. But how do you handle that question, Shelly?

SPEAKER_01

What did you see that told you that their core was not engaged enough? That usually is like that's the stopper right there. It's like, well, what do you mean? Well, what did you see that told you that their core was not engaged? And maybe something like think something super simple, quadruped, hands and knees. Somebody moves their leg out, you know, lifts their leg from the ground, goes into like hip neutral, hip extension, and their body changes position, right? If you see that, great. But you're not gonna cue, I'm not just gonna cue my abdominal muscles, right? Because there's all types of other muscles in the body that are also having to do something. So I might say, you know, when you lift your leg, did you notice your back arched? Okay. So feel like you can pull your ribs up or pull your back ribs closer to the ceiling or put your ribs, keep your ribs on my hand when you do that. Whatever. Create some place where they can physically change their body, get it in the right position and maintain it. Now they've learned how to do that. Just saying tighten your, you know, abdominals. But I did this at a conference and I I'm I'm getting a little bit, you know, older and older and grumpier in my as I do this. I, you know, but you know what? I'm at a point, it's like, yeah, here I am. Take me or leave me. I'm I'm really good with all of it. And I was teaching at a workshop one day, and it was a whole bunch of different schools represented, different teachers and whatever. And one lady kept going on about the core, and I kind of just uh and then finally I said, I said, this is great. We keep we keep coming back to this. So I want to know what is the core? And everybody, you know, like the poll people who've been a poll star and some of the other more contemporary journeys, everybody's giggling. But and I said, no, really, seriously. Like what in your definition of the core, what does that mean? What does that include? And I bet if we ask everybody, we're not gonna come to consensus on what the core is. We'll get close, but some people will put things in or not. And so we're not even talking about the same parts of the body. How can we have a conversation when we're not talking about the same thing? And it really, she, I I it was one of those moments where I thought, oh dear, Shelley, you've you you've gone a little too far this time. This person's gonna be really irritated with this question, and your reviews are gonna come back not very good. I, you know, and she actually was very okay with it, had never really thought of it that way, and realized the importance of, are we talking about the same thing? And, you know, I usually say, people say, What about the core? I'll say, Well, what about it? What do you what what do you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of things we can talk about. And back to your quadruped sort of analogy as well. If that person is there and they're in a position that isn't what we're wanting them to do, they could actually engage their core more, whatever that means, but they'll kind of suck it in and do something and actually not change the shape of their movement at all. And I think that was such a revelation for me in my body, where suddenly I was being, you know, educated, not just exercised, but kind of educated. Oh, if I want to do that, how do I do that? And of course, I think then that gives us the mindfulness that Pilates is quite famous for, where I'm actually having, I am still having a very good workout, but I'm really concentrated. I'm like, how okay, this is really interesting. What how do I feel that? What do I need to do? And and it flips you back, even the way you were talking about your education, it made me think about when clients can figure things out for themselves, that's so much more powerful and impactful, isn't it, than when we come over and kind of correct them and do stuff. They they kind of take it in. And it's just a really interesting, really interesting idea to how do we facilitate them to do that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, yes, because isn't it the goal that that you become aware of these things? You each person becomes aware of these things and then can continue to do it outside of the Pilates studio. A couple of hours of Pilates a week is not enough to make a change in how I do my things. I have to become autonomous. I have to have the internal awareness to go, you know, okay, I'm slouching, I'm sitting like this, which again, I could sit like this for a moment and nothing bad's gonna happen. And then I'll sit like this, and then I might change my position. And, but I need to develop the awareness to notice, oh, I'm in this position. This doesn't feel so good. What do I do about it? Oh, I can do that. And we become independent. That that's what I want is I don't want to have to be cueing the same thing to somebody all the time. Like, just learn it. So I have to teach them a way that they can learn it. That's that's challenging because some people, their nervous system isn't really fine-tuned. Like, like a lot of the people watching this, we could spend hours on one little thing and be completely entertained by it. A lot of people, it's like the volume is down, like they're they don't notice that these things are happening. And so we have to show them and give them ways that then they can become more autonomous. And that's that's that's huge. That's that's such it's a disservice if I don't do that for my clients and I'm constantly, oh, do this, do that. No, no, no. You're gonna learn how to do it. It's like again, it's like parenting. Do you want to have to keep telling your child how to do this, or are you gonna give them the tools to learn to do it? Know what some of the consequences are if you don't, and and again, it's that learning, that learning process.

SPEAKER_00

You definitely notice when you do observation, and if you're lucky enough to observe some really great teachers, there's definitely more silence and space in the class where you know some of that information's being delivered, and then there's some time to take it in, which is very different, by the way, because I did see this done once where someone just did leave silence. Like you've got to give, uh you need to have given me something that I'm thinking about. So in my brain, you're not silent at all. I'm actually having a full conversation because you've given me a task that you've set me as the client. Very different to be like, okay, push out and in and footwork, and then silent. I did see that done when I was like, no, that's a different type of silence. It needs to be silence. The teacher needs to shut up, but actually internally, I'm having a big conversation. Can I ask you, Shelley, with all this in mind, and I see this done with Polestar, I see this done with a few other teacher trainings and schools, but I see in the vast majority not teaching like this. I see a lot of the engagement, and I think that's fueling the confusion. And by the way, I've learned this kind of stuff not just from Pilates, but uh on anatomy trainings as well, anatomy movement trainings. Like this isn't just, you know, the gospel according to Shelly Power and Polestar and some others. Um, why do you think that is? Because it's quite frustrating that 10 years into really knowing this inside out that this isn't helpful for people, that there are teachers coming out graduating today, being taught this, yeah, this kind of cue the c the core and cue the shoulders. And you know, there's these kind of set cues. And I think that's and they're coming out of a recent teacher training with that knowledge.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know why. I don't either. I find it frustrating.

SPEAKER_01

And I don't want to say things like, oh, they're lazy or because they probably again, to their credit, they just don't know it yet, right? They most people really are doing their best. Whatever it is, you may look at it or we, you know, whoever, society may look at it and think, oh, this is this is ridiculous. But most people are doing their best to teach what they know, provide a good experience, all of those things. Why we haven't gotten here, you know, gotten this message out to more, I I don't know. It takes time. And it is very much how things have been taught forever. Tighten your glutes, tighten your my favorite is tighten your stomach. Um, I love that one. Tighten your stomach so your food digests more. I don't know. I don't know what tightening the stomach is supposed to get. And I I'm I'm not sure, but I I hope and I think with, like you're saying, some of the anatomy and facial movement trainings that are out there, more full body, body weight, you know, all of the calisthenics and things that I think people are getting into a little bit more, where they're they're flowing through movements, not just doing 10 of something, but they're actually moving through to get to somewhere else and and need the efficiency of that. And when you think about, you know, okay, well, are you gonna inhale when that happens or exhale? You're like, I don't know, I'm just struggling to get through this thing. It's like, right. So let the system tell you when you need to breathe more. Or we as teachers can see that, right? Somebody's holding their breath, or they could exhale longer to promote something happening. And we can uh, you know, we can ask those questions of people is try it like this. See, does this help? Does this make it worse? Does this make it better? You know, I think it'll change. I think it's just, you know, just continuing to encourage people, not shame them, not, you know, oh, you're not doing it right. But but try it, try it this other way. And when you bring it back to things like watching martial artists, watching, you know, all these different people moving, they're not thinking, oh shoot, I forgot to, I forgot to tighten my tricep. You know, it's like it just doesn't come into it. Yet we don't put ourselves in that same place of doing of doing movement that way.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I guess a lot of this, Shelly, comes back to the fact that we're not a profession as Pilates teachers. So we're not governed by a curriculum. It's not even about accreditation per se, but we're not governed by a curriculum. There's not a standard, like there is an expectation that if you see a physiotherapist at a certain level of knowledge, they've been taught XYZ and you know, kind of the same way, and you know, they might bring it to life a little bit differently, but the the curriculum has the same ethos in it. And of course, that's not really what exists, is it? And with the current boom, I mean, I did I I I interviewed someone last week, and she said that in London they'd had a 78% increase of Pilates studios in the last 18 months. And I then did some city, I live in quite a small city, Shelley. So in January 2025, there were seven studios. I did some research, there's 26. I've just found out I have a 27th opening next week. I mean, I I've never known any modality boom like this. I mean, I don't know if it's you know the same in America, but I've said bar didn't boom like this. I don't think CrossFit boomed like this. I don't think anything. I mean, I'm like, I don't know where all these people are coming from, but of course, that's why there's a need for all these teachers and therefore a need to get them through quickly. And it does raise the point, doesn't it? And it's a question I've asked all the people at your level, really. Is there ever a solution to this to try and bring the Pilates world together to be able to create some consistency? Or m most people I've interviewed said no, we've tried, we can't do it. But what, you know, is it possible? And is and is it a is it is it even more of a challenge and needed than ever before?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, we have tried, you know, and there are different organizations that I think some are doing well, you know, to kind of bring this to light, some, you know, aren't yet, but maybe will. I'm I'm definitely an optimist. And I think we just need to continue, you know, those of us in these positions of, you know, a lot of people, you know, hear from us. We touch a lot of people. Can we continue to inspire people? And it does become a little bit of preaching to the choir, like you're teaching to the people, you know, it's like advertising something on Facebook. Well, your Facebook followers already know about it. So how are you reaching new people? And I think that's some of the, that's some of the challenge is how do we, how do we get to know? New people who maybe don't know this yet. And but I hate to be like, oh, just throw up my hands and say, you know, it's never gonna, it's never gonna get better, because it will. I mean, things, things do change. And the public, the consumer, very savvy. And when they come into places and it doesn't matter if the person isn't trained really well, but they still are trained at an at an okay kind of advanced beginner level. People are having a good experience, they're safe. They'll learn more from somebody else, right? That should encourage the younger teachers to continue this lifelong learning, have a mentor that you work with or a group of people. And I think from that grassroots, I think we can make make some differences in how people are moving forward. I don't know that just having more organizations is necessarily going to help because what's the ethos and what's the what's that organization really doing? I think it can. I think it can. And I think many of us want to work together and want to not dictate how exactly how we teach something, but again, bring it from these little teeny bits of information up to the concept level. Like let's look at education. Let's look at curriculum. Do you know what a curriculum is? Do you know about schools and accreditation and, you know, things like, oh, I'll go start a school tomorrow. I can go teach somebody, I'll teach two people. And, you know, do I have things like a way to take in money and give a refund if I needed to? Do I, am I a professional organization that, you know, a company that can do all these things that a that a business does? And I think we could spend some more time there, possibly talking about those things. Because it's easy to teach Pilates. I can teach you to teach Pilates, but do I have record keeping? Can I, you know, what what are the other aspects of being a school? And it doesn't matter if you're teaching one priest person or a hundred people. You're you're a school. So do you function like a school? So these are some these are some places I think we can continue to grow. And we've been there. It's a little up and down. I hope we get back there.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, I mentioned the boom, and it it is I I I heard, you know, from my American friends, you guys have had a boom for a while, but are you even noticing that it's booming like at this crazy, crazy level? I mean, I think a lot of studio owners in the UK anyway are getting a little bit panicked. But what still excites you about Pilates and kind of seeing that we're going through this huge growth at the moment?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think that more people are that are doing it, that's a huge thing. I mean, that's one of the things. Again, you know, I never talked to Joe. I didn't, you know, but but the stories that we hear, because again, I don't want to get any hate mail of, you know, he never said that. It's like, I don't know. I'm just saying what, I'm just saying what I know to be true. You know, he wanted everybody doing Pilates, kids, adults, you know, whoever. And and and doing it as a lifestyle. He talked about lifestyle, not just about do, you know, a bunch of exercises. He, you know, if you read the things that he wrote, you know, how you live your life, fresh air and sunshine and all the things. And so if we can take it on board as a as a lifestyle, that's that I think really then doing the service to Joe and the body of work that he created and wanted to continue to work in. So I think that that a lot more people doing quaddies, I think is great. And it's not pretty, it's a little messy sometimes, but the benefit is people are exposed to it. Now they can find studios that have more qualified teachers, better, longer, you know, just better teachers. I don't think it's something we need to be afraid of because we have other things like in business, like retention, right? Your studio is always really busy, but you don't have retention of your clients, right? They're they're off to somewhere else. So it it's kind of a false sense of you're doing well. And I think those things are are pieces that we can that we can work on a little better, but I don't think it's something to be afraid of.

SPEAKER_00

And is there anything that concerns you with what you see at the moment?

SPEAKER_01

Not with that. What concerns me is this contentious, like like the Pilates police that we all used to joke about, oh you, you know, you weren't quite in the right position. The Pilates police might come, you know, and it was this funny joke. Now it's like I'm afraid to say any, not not not entirely, like if we really come down to it, I'll say whatever I want to say. But I'm a little bit like every post I put on, every it's like I'm I'm like, I'm ready, right, to have somebody attack me for saying I I just don't know how that's helpful. It's one thing to point things out that maybe are not true, not, you know, let's let's take a look at this. People are going out of their way to just be mean, like the cancel culture, all of that stuff is still around. And I just, I'm so tired of it. It's like I'm always looking over my shoulder because you said something that was wrong or you did something. And and again, I can hold my own, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it's true. I mean, and cancel cultures, I mean, it's a challenge in in almost every industry, I guess, these days and in the in life generally. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And I mean, I sit with my team sometimes, you know, they're all stressed out about something, you know, just something in the office. And I'm like, guys, it's just Pilates, chill out. It's the same, isn't it? It's like chill out. And also, you know, at the end of a class and you stand and you tune in and you notice how you feel. And I don't think there's any, doesn't matter what kind of Pilates you go to. I don't think if anyone goes, I think they would stand there and go, I feel calmer, I feel more grounded, I feel happier about myself, I feel happier about the world. Like that's what you feel and see, don't you? Maybe we need to remember to be in that place when we decide to write some content because I'm not sure in that space of mind we would ever say those things and be nasty. Like that's I don't think that's what we should ever be trying to promote.

SPEAKER_01

It's just, it's just not needed. It's and it's I just don't think it's helpful. It's one thing if you like if I said something wrong or did something wrong, and somebody came to me, like a direct message to me saying, hey, you know, you stated this fact, it's actually not true, you can find the information here. I would love that. I don't want to say things that are wrong. I mean, about anything. This is not necessarily just about Pilates, but you know, if if somebody was, if it was genuine to help me understand more, do better, great. I'm I'm all open to that. But people just being snarky and and unpleasant and you know, like they've been self-appointed like the keepers of Pilates, it's like yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and I think as well, you know what it's interesting that you said that that's concerned you because, of course, what we've also got is people outside of the world of Pilates now going, Pilates isn't enough. Let's pit Pilates against strength training, or let's pit. So let's even like maybe if there's any message we can get out from today, it's maybe within our own world we could just be together and unified, even if we're unified and that we have differences of belief and systems and ways that we do things. But there's enough people coming for us. We might as well be together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, what how can how can we raise ourselves? Like, how can we raise each other? How can we, how can we help the whole, the whole of Pilates? And yes, there's gonna be, you know, and again, truth in advertising. If I, you know, a lot of people are teaching Pilates plus something. Great. Say you're teaching Pilates plus something, teach that, and it's fine. And if I want to go to that class, I'll go. If I don't want to, I won't go. Doesn't mean it's bad. What I what I don't like is teaching something, like saying you're gonna teach something and then it becomes something else. That I don't, I'm not in for that.

SPEAKER_00

I think that's a challenge of the world at the moment, is that I think through probably AI, all the studios sound the same. And I've definitely done a few talks where I've been asked this. And I said, as studio owners, I think we all need to just do a better job of explaining who we are and what we are and what we're about. Because I read a lot of studios descriptions, they sound exactly like mine. I go there and it's nothing, like nothing. It's exactly that. It's it's Pilates with strength or Pilates with hits or and like fine. And now I know that when I go there, I'm like, I've made that choice and I know what I'm going to. But I that's advice I keep giving studio owners. I'm like, please, can we all just describe what we are clearer? Because then we'll attract the right clients to us who love and goes back to your retention issue. They'll stay because they love that. They want Pilates with strength or they want fast-paced Pilates. But if they want more rehabilitation stuff, they're gonna come to me. And that's great. And then actually, there's there's work for all of us. Right.

SPEAKER_01

One studio can offer all of those things, right? At nine o'clock is this class, ten o'clock is this class, this class is more is more fundamental, this class is this. And I think when people can experience all those things, they also are a better, smarter consumer because they don't know either. So it's it's inherent. We have in uh like what we do, we have to be clear with that so that they know what they're getting. We know what we're delivering, and then everybody's happy. You know, you can you can choose the thing that you want. Just just make sure you really are. If you say you're doing something, do it, do that thing.

SPEAKER_00

Shelley, I have loved talking to you, and I know we've gone above our time, but how could I not? Because we just we could have talked for another hour. And can I end with just some, I mean, they're never quick, they're quickish, quickish fire questions. Something that you see new teachers worry about too much.

SPEAKER_01

Making the making the classes and things too, I was gonna say too energetic, and that's not really what I want to say, but it's like just working out for the sake of working out with nothing behind it. So I think they feel like they have to do that to deliver a good session, and I think there's more ways than that. But I could probably think of 20 other answers.

SPEAKER_00

No, I know, and I I think this because I came out of my training and I and I like we all do, right? And we've spent thousands on the course, and we've probably had privates and we've probably done travel and we've probably you know, it's it's a big thing. And we've got this manual that someone has spent years writing and playing with and tweaking and the meetings that you shared. And then you see, when I've qualified, Instagram didn't have any videos. I found out the other day, Pilates Anytime had just started. YouTube was 20-minute videos. So basically, Shelly, I just had my manual for many, many, many years. And it meant that back to your point about looking at the swan in different ways. Like I kind of had this manual that I had to look at, you know, the exercises inside out, back to front. Okay, what if I did this? What if I did this? What if, you know, and so I learned what I'd learn, and I I that's all I had. So I just spent years playing with it a bit. And then I think you can then add, you know, if you see something, you can go, well, that's interesting, and I can see where that's made up. But I think the challenge is now, and I see this a lot with my new teachers who come to work for my studio too, we're being bombarded with messaging. And then they think, oh, it doesn't matter that I spent, you know, 8,000 pounds on all of this. I'm gonna abandon it and teach the stuff that I've seen. And I think that's kind of what you're saying. And then it become it doesn't have the purpose that we've spent all these years training.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like, it's like trying to keep up with like the more you're on Instagram, the more things you see. And when you have when you can step back, you have that critical eye and you have experience, you can say, Oh yeah, I can see how I could safely do this with this person. And I do, you know, steps one to ten prior to doing this, and I can see where it fits in. Whereas a new teacher may or may not. And it's like this the striving to like keep it interesting and keep it moving and keeping all these things. And the clients have no, for the most part, no, no need to do any of those things yet. They can, but let's get them there in a in a reasonable way. And I think there's just this pressure to like, you know, keep going, keep going, keep going. And we don't step back and and take a breath and look at really what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00

And let's think of the journey. That teacher who's done that beautiful video on social, like, let's think of their journey to be able to do that. We need to like they're years usually into this. So we need to give our clients that. Yeah. Is there a question that you think Pilates teachers should keep asking themselves throughout their career?

SPEAKER_01

I think why, why am I doing this still? What, why, why do I choose to be, to continue to be in this profession? I think that's a really valuable, a really valuable question. I think we could ask it about anything that we're that we're doing. It's like, why am I doing this? And when you're quiet, again, taking all the all the noise away. And when you're really quiet, like, why do I why do I do this? And I think just reflecting on that periodically is is good. And and it's okay to come up with the answer of, you know what? I don't like this anymore. I'm gonna change and do something else. That is okay. And then you may come back around to it again at some point.

SPEAKER_00

In our training, I get our students to do their mission, vision, and values, a bit like you do for a company. But I say to them, I do do this every few years, and it I wouldn't say it's wildly changed, but they change a bit, you know, and I've evolved and my beliefs have got stronger in certain areas. But I say to new teachers, I think what's really good about that is it also helps you understand who you are, and maybe you'll resonate, therefore, with certain studios, maybe more than others, if you're going to work for studios. And at the end of the day, we all need to pay our rent. So if you realize that you're taking a job for money, even though that's not really an ethos of a studio that you like, but you've made that knowingly, haven't you? You kind of you're consciously doing it, and you're like, okay, well, I'm okay with it. I've made that decision, as opposed to feeling like you go in there and then you're like, well, I can't teach how I want to teach. And it's to kind of understand that, isn't it? I think to really, I think that's such a great advice, actually, to do that piece of work regularly to help guide you and what you want to do and the kind of work you want to do. I've definitely gone through periods where I love teaching groups, I've gone through periods where I love teaching private, and I've kind of changed and I've allowed myself to be like, you know what? I'm gonna step back from that for a bit. I'm finding that really draining, and I'm gonna do more of this work for a bit. So I think that's a great kind of idea. And like you said, you might come to this and be like, I don't think I think I've reached the end of the road to this, and that's okay as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. You can always come back. You know, it's not like the door closes and you can't come back and do it again.

SPEAKER_00

Um, last question. If any teacher listening could leave our conversation today, Shelly, with a mindset rather than a technique, like what kind of mindset would you hope that they have that will propel them to just thrive in this world?

SPEAKER_01

I would say an openness to learning goes back to the to the curiosity piece. An openness to learning and being in that place where it might feel a little bit vulnerable. And we do get to a point where we're quite good at what we do. Like I can teach a session if somebody came in right now and said, quick, you have to teach a reformer class. I can I can be teaching a reformer class right now. I could be doing teacher training if somebody knocked on the door, like, we need teach training right now. I can do it. And and be open though to the things that we're not so comfortable with. And this goes back to me teaching one of our continuing education courses, this course called Critical Reasoning, which I now have taught. It still takes me time to prep and I really do it. But I remember the first time I taught it, I was back in the shoes of a beginner at teaching this material because I hadn't done it before. And it's good to come back to those moments too, be a beginner at something and really live in that moment. What a great place to be where you don't know anything. You're open, you're curious, you're learning and value and honor the things that you do know and can do really well. And all of those things can happen at the same time. It's not exclusive, you're only a beginner, you're only, you know, quite seasoned. And I think finding those little moments of of curiosity and openness and like, all right, I'm gonna take all the things that I I think I know. I'm just gonna put them over here for a moment, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go where this person is going. And and it's really refreshing. And it it it entered for me at least, it energizes everything else that I'm doing, having that, having that openness, openness to learn.

SPEAKER_00

Shelly, thank you so much for your time today. I have absolutely well, you knew I'd love this conversation because I love chatting to you. I could, we could keep going. We'll have to do we'll we'll try and arrange a part two for like a week's time, and we'll be here in a year when we finally found some time in your very busy diary where we're it's not even your diary, it's like your time zone, Shelly, because you're literally all over the world. And trying to and trying to be with me in the UK. But thank you so much. And I know everyone will have got so much from this. So thank you for sharing so much of your story and your thoughts and all the things. And I'm hoping that this just inspires people just to keep learning, as you said. Me too. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. I genuinely love to know what stayed with you from today's conversation. Because I found myself reflecting on it long after we finished recording. For me, one of the biggest reminders was that becoming a better teacher isn't always about learning more and going on more courses. Sometimes it's about slowing down, staying curious, and asking better questions. I really love continuing these conversations over on Instagram. So do head over and let me know what resonated with you the most. You'll find me on beyond underscore reforma underscore pod. So beyond underscore reforma pod. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please don't forget to follow the podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere else that you're listening. It'll mean that it'll pop up and you never miss a conversation. And if you do have a friend or a colleague or even a client who you think would love this conversation, do share it with them. Thanks again so much for listening, and I'll see you next week for another episode of Beyond the Reformer.