Beyond the Reformer

The Missing Piece in Pilates Teacher Training with Amy Havens

• Nic Lenny

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"I think self-acceptance and self-compassion... it's gonna keep changing and if you hear the loud stuff saying, I can't do that anymore - no." - Amy Havens

In this episode, Nic is joined by Amy Havens, a veteran Pilates educator, mentor, and movement teacher based in Santa Barbara with over 30 years of experience in the industry. Amy has trained across multiple lineages - including Fletcher, BASI, Kathy Grant, and Madeleine Black - and is widely respected as one of the most thoughtful voices in Pilates education today.

They explore what it really takes to become a truly great Pilates teacher - from the qualities that no training manual can teach, like patience and compassion, to the art of learning to see and respond to the bodies in front of you. Amy shares her rich origin story, from discovering Pilates as a dance student in 1989 to becoming injured, finding healing through the work, and eventually committing to teaching as a lifelong calling.

They also dig into the current state of the Pilates industry - the growing divide between fitness Pilates and the more healing-oriented tradition, the case for prerequisites before teacher training, and why mastering the fundamentals will always matter more than creative programming. Amy makes a compelling case for mentorship as the missing piece for so many new teachers, and shares what that relationship can look like when it's done well.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro to Amy Havens

00:14 What makes a truly great Pilates teacher

02:08 Learning to see and respond to different bodies

04:49 Amy's origin story - discovering Pilates in college

08:10 Observing from the front desk and falling in love with the work

10:42 Getting cold feet before teacher training - and why that was the right call

13:23 Amy's formal training with Madeleine Black at the Physical Mind Institute

15:27 Learning to teach, not just to do

17:34 How injury became the turning point toward teaching

21:38 Why the best teachers are often those whose lives were changed by Pilates

22:40 The case for prerequisites in Pilates teacher training

28:13 What great mentorship actually looks like

31:46 Amy as a forever student - training across multiple lineages

37:06 How studying different styles shaped Amy's teaching

43:29 The state of the Pilates industry - two forks in the road

45:14 Fitness Pilates vs. healing Pilates - is it all Pilates?

47:52 Why studio owners need to do better at describing what they offer

53:00 Don't teach too much too soon - a lesson from Madeleine Black

55:25 Why mastering fundamentals matters more than creative programming

56:44 Quick-fire questions

01:03:28 Where to find Amy


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SPEAKER_00

Coming up on this week's episode of Beyond the Reformer. Today I'm joined by Amy Havens. I had seen every specialist known to man, the doctors, the consultants, and no one got me better. And it was Pilates that got me better.

SPEAKER_01

This industry has grown so much so fast. It's a beautiful thing. I'm just excited for it and I'm also scared to death. You can't come in to become a teacher until you've been a student for a while. It doesn't make sense to me. I would never go, I want to be a piano teacher. Well, how many years have been playing piano? Don't teach too much too soon. Quality over quantity will always be the successful outcome. You can't be to everybody. You cannot be the teacher.

SPEAKER_00

Hello everyone and welcome back to Be on the Reformer. I'm Nick Lenny. I'm a studio owner, a Pilates teacher, an educator, and your host for these conversations, exploring the people and the ideas shaping the Pilates world. Amy is actually someone that I personally discovered quite recently when I was in Los Angeles for the Pilates expo there. I happened to take her 7:30 a.m class, and honestly, it was my favorite class of the entire event. I actually hadn't followed her work before. I don't know how I'd missed her. Now I've looked into her, she's literally everywhere. But I was immediately struck by the clarity of her teaching and the way that she communicates movement and just helps you feel so good in your body. So I knew after that class I wanted to invite her onto the podcast. I went up to her, asked her, and I wanted to hear more about her story. So today I'm so excited to share that conversation with you. Before we get into today's conversation with Amy, I've just got a quick favor to ask. If you are enjoying these episodes, please share it with another teacher, a colleague, even lots of clients are listening to it. And it would really help us out if you could click the like, follow, or subscribe button wherever you're listening, or you can now watch on YouTube and also on Spotify. Okay, let's get into today's conversation. Amy, it is such a pleasure to have you on Beyond the Reformer. Thank you so much for joining me today. And thank you, Nick, for inviting me. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you. Well, I went to your class when I was in LA and I absolutely loved it. And I went up to see you at the end like some crazy person and said, Will you come on my podcast? And you said, Yeah, sure. So here we are a couple of months later, which is nice. A small world.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it is a small world, big, small world kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I want to start with you've spent decades teaching Pilates and mentoring other teachers. When you look back over time, what do you think actually makes a really great Pilates teacher?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, so many things. I think first, oh, I don't even know where to start with first. I think what makes a great Pilates teacher compassion for the other, whether it's a big group class or individual, is and being patient. You know, this is a practice that takes time to embody and takes time to learn, takes time to understand. And as a teacher, I think we have a huge responsibility. And I remember hearing that from Ron Fletcher a long time ago in a workshop of this is a huge responsibility to teach people. And in teaching, what layers into being a teacher is you've got to be patient. We've got to have compassion. Everyone's learning styles are very different. And knowing, you know, some people are auditory, that you can just give them a cue or give them a let's let's let's go with this, and they can physically produce it. You know, some people are more visual, they have to see the teacher demonstrate it, or other people do it, and they have to watch it and try to go. And some people need all of it, and they need their hands to help them, they need their feet, the hands on the feet on the footbar, they need to really feel, you know. So I think for us teachers and teachers out there watching and listening and future teachers, embody patience if you can.

SPEAKER_00

It's an interesting thing, isn't it? Because whenever I ask people this question, I get similar kinds of answers, and it's less about almost the skills that you might learn on your teacher training of you must program in this way and you must say in this way. It's always about these kind of deeper qualities. And such a great point you make around the different styles that people learn. And that takes practice, doesn't it? Like when you come out with your qualification, that's when often you're first met with going, oh, I'm not teaching a room of trainee Pilates teachers anymore. I'm teaching the public. And so, how do we get better at that if we're if we're listening to this and we're thinking, okay, this makes sense, but I wasn't taught that. So how do I learn?

SPEAKER_01

I I agree 100%. And that it's a this is a big responsibility again. I think teacher training programs have a huge, abundant opportunity to also include maybe a module or maybe a not even an optional, optional module, but a and here's the real stuff kind of thing. Here, here's what you're really going to see. You aren't probably going to see able-bodied people coming through the door every hour in your day. If you get one able-bodied meaning trainees, like we have our trainees when we go through a class, you know, teach a training, and we're all pretty much the same skill. We can do it. We're the drive is similar, the motivation is the same. Those are often not the real clients, at least from my experience. Mine too. Um, yeah, they come in with hesitation sometimes. They're not sure why they're there, they don't know what they're looking at. This is our world. They're stepping into our world, right? So a a regular client, a real client, maybe they I mean, I I the gamut is huge. Maybe they don't enjoy taking off their socks and they realize that, oh, this is a studio that needs bare feet. And so a trainee, a teacher might, are they okay with bare feet? I mean, these are silly things maybe here, but you know.

SPEAKER_00

It's so true. And it's, you know, I always I I think to myself as well about how nervous people might feel the first time they come into a studio. This can feel quite alien to them. This might be something brand new to them. And how can we as teachers just put them at ease? Like you said, down to the socks that you might need them to wear or not wear, or they might feel like I've had people walk into the studio in their trainers, and you're saying, no, you don't need to wear your trainers, you know, and things like that. How do we how do we help them with that? So it's such a good point. I'd love to understand, Amy, your story. Can I take you back? When did Pilates come into your life?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, bet. I met Pilates, as I often say. I was introduced and met Pilates when I was in college. It was a dance major at Colorado State University, which is not really known at that time for being a dance school, but uh my faculty were amazing. And one of my modern dance teachers, it was our Tuesday, Thursday afternoon modern uh teacher, Judy Beherano, knew that we needed to know and feel and understand Pilates. She saw our bodies like there's something they need. She knew the local teacher in Fort Collins, Colorado. He had just opened a studio. He was a Boulder graduate uh from the Boulder School. So he brought Gary, she brought Gary Calderon in to our modern class for three weeks to learn mat. And it was in those three weeks that Gary just came. We didn't, I don't even think we had mats on the floor. Like we were on the floor, you know, like old school. This is like 1989 and 90, a long time ago. And it was sweet and it was mysterious and fun. So Gary was teaching us mat work, and as most of us do, we we kind of look at the class and we're looking at wow, this is what I do. Oh, that that movement is coming easy for that body. Okay. Oh, she's struggling. Interesting. She was doing that one easily, and this one she's having trouble with. Okay, keeping an eye on where we can take her. You know, he was scanning the group, and then in the last week, he was, who wants to demonstrate? You know, that kind of thing. And all of us dancers like to demonstrate. Come on, we're, yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it. So he was on this side of me. I'll never forget. It was so clear, I have a very good memory. And he gave us three exercises. He said, I'd like to, let's have you try rolling like a ball. I knew I had already kind of not done so well with that one, but I'm like, okay, sure, I get all ready. And it was the flat tire situation, roll back, can't get back up. I looked at him, I'm like, hold on, I'm sorry, let me do it again. You know, you're always apologizing for not being able to do it. And I couldn't do it, I couldn't get up, right? And I'm like, oh, I'm so embarrassed. And he said, Don't worry about it. Let's try it. How about open leg rocker? And I'm like, Oh, sure. Right. So I have I had flexibility. So that was the first part was fine. And then again, that same inability to roll smoothly and back up. I couldn't get up. I got back and you know, and then the the final was um neck pull. You can see where he was, he's yes, and still to this day, my rolling like a ball and any rolling exercise is quite a bit of study for me. I love it because I have to keep coming back to it. I have to keep coming back to it. So, Gary and the other teacher at that studio, Jeff Woodman, who was going through the course at the time, I became his practice student with between the both of them. And so I was introduced that way in college. And Gary had just opened a studio and they needed a front desk girl or person, excuse me. At that time, it was like a front desk girl. And he said, We can't pay you, but we can do a trade. And I said, Oh, for what would yeah, I yes, I tend to say yes about lots of things. He said, 10 hours a week at the desk, answering the phone, scheduling people for one private lesson. And you can sit in on Mac classes if there's room. Sign me up. So I I did, and my first exposure was sitting at the desk, the front door was here, the studio was over there, and you know, I would just sit and observe and listen and watch and learn by observation.

SPEAKER_00

And and then what and what was the story then to you becoming a teacher? Did you I mean, did you was it humbling to kind of have those things that you found hard in your body? Did did you quite like that? I hear this from some, especially some of the dancers, because often you feel like you really know your body, and then suddenly you're doing these what look like quite simple things, and then you're like, I can't, I can't do that. Why can't I do that?

SPEAKER_01

100%. So, Gary, when I I think it was Netpool, I looked at it and I said, How come I can't do this? And he said, Do you, as a great salesman, do you want to learn how? I said, Of course I do. And that's when he said, We we need someone at the studio. And so would you like to come in? And in that, they had also decided to start their own teacher training program based on the Boulder curriculum. I didn't know any of what that really meant at that time. Again, I was this is the very beginning for me. That's when Romano was still coming out to Boulder. She did come up to Fort Collins. I didn't get to meet her, but it was at that time that she was coming to Ingy and Rachel and made a pit stop up in Fort Collins. And Gary and Lisa, the owners of the studio, said, Would you like to go through our teacher training? You're doing great. And I said, Yes. But or I should say, and I got the big book. They put everything together. I think there were five of us that they had gathered, and I got cold feet. I was looking through that manual, Nick, and I I didn't know. I didn't know all that. I'm looking, what's this? I've never done this. There's no way I oh, I know that one. I'm not very good at that. I don't, and I just I got this sense of I know. Why would I I'm not ready to take that on? So I went to the Lisa, the owner, and I had to bow down and say, I I can't. I'm not ready. I'm not your the person. She didn't like that much. Um, my front desk job was taken away. But that's okay because in that time I realized I'll I'll be a teacher of this someday.

SPEAKER_00

So you kind of knew, even though you pulled out, you thought, no, this is this is the thing. It's funny, I pulled out of my course first time as well. Um, I think I've learned over the years that there's something about me, and I see it in other people too, where when you have that quite strong reaction, it's actually normally means something, doesn't it? It's like a real growth edge. You're kind of being pushed out of your comfort zone, but it can feel like it's too much, and so you walk away. But actually, I think I've learned over the years it's taking you in the right place. And it's that it's so funny to hear you had that story too. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No, it was, and I I felt solid about it. You know, I'm it was a bit of a relief in a way, but also like, oh shoot. And as I look back at that time, because I look back at that and say, what if I would have stayed there? And what if I would have gone through that program? I probably would have met Romana, I probably would have, I could have have, you know, all those coulda, shoulda, woulda. And I have to step back and say, but that wasn't what I was supposed to do at that time. My path was taking me over here and being just accepting all of that. So, and and I learned really to be patient again and be a student and take what I was learning and applying it to my dance work. And so I moved to San Francisco to dance and I got hurt there. It's okay. And but when I was leaving Colorado, I asked Gary, I said, So, Gary, I if I do decide to go through teacher to become a teacher, who should I? How do I do that? And he that's at the time again. Well, there was a little memo notepad, like a little teeny memo. I was writing my little notes that Gary was telling me. And he said, You go to St. Francis Memorial Hospital and you look up Elizabeth Larkam. And I'm like, okay, you're in. And here I go into San Francisco, and I walked in to St. Francis Memorial Hospital, the dance depart, wherever I was in that building, and I sat and in this area, and I the studio was over there. I'm not sure if it was Elizabeth. I think it was. I didn't meet that person. I just went in and said, I'm looking to become a Pilates teacher. And I feel in my heart it was Elizabeth, but she said, Oh, oh, you need to go to a body of work and you need to talk to Madeline Black. So here's my Sono notebook. I'm writing it. And she said, It's the it's the address is on Union and Baker. It's just down a few blocks. You can what do I do? I go down, find my way. And that was the beginning of that teacher training. So I stepped in and it was the last course that Madeline Black was giving uh through the Physical Mind Institute. Because in the in the background, she was working on her own program.

SPEAKER_00

So and how was that for you? What was that? Was it was that like a course? Because you know, at that time there was still a lot of apprenticeships, there was a little bit of courses coming through. But what was the sort of format of that? And how did that make you feel? Had it been like the kind of Pilates you'd done before? Because this is the interesting thing, isn't it? You start to realize there's different flavors. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01

Uh it was w run where very well. I feel like at the time I had a full-time job, so I had to kind of figure that out, which I did. But it was, I feel like it was a Tuesday. Well, there was a rec requirement. You had to have gone through of the prerequisites, which is a huge thing of a huge opinion of mine, and do their mat first, the whole Mat certification. And that was a weekend and did that. I had already known my Matt, so that came relatively okay. So that was the prerequisite. I got checked off. Okay, you got that. We had to prove that we've done private lessons. So I called Gary. Gary, can you vouch for me that no problem? So, yes, you've had plenty of hours of private lessons, so you're okay. So the course was a Tuesday, Thursday afternoon, one to four, I believe, for six months, maybe something, maybe longer. And we Madeline was not easy, which I love. You know, she was serious, she was funny, she was insightful. The program itself, we had 14 people in the group in a not a very big room. Was it like the Pilates I had been doing? Yes, curriculum-wise, but intention a little different. It was a little softer, it was a little less let's work out, it was more let's look. What are we seeing? What do you see with the feet? Where what do you see with the pelvis? What do you not just learning the choreography? So which is what should be happening in teacher training. She was teaching us to teach, not to learn it.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's so important, isn't it? And it's it goes back to what we talked at the beginning about how do you work with the people who are in front of you and you know, understand all of that. And it is that. So you do that training, and then what comes next? You know, do you are you are you still dancing at that point, or is there a is there a moment where you there's a transition for you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's a transition in there. I was performing and injured a hip, went to a chiropractor because that's all I really knew was the thing to do. I did a lot of that in Colorado. The chiropractor looked at my pelvis and my my body. She said, Oh wow, you have a lot of rotation. No wonder you hurt yourself. I'm like, what does that mean? Because again, I wasn't learning Pilates from that perspective. I was learning it to do it. You know. So in that visit with the chiropractor, she said, I happen to have a Pilates teacher down the hall who I think couldn't give you some rehabilitation. And I said, Oh, Pilates. And she said, Do you know what it is? I said, I do. And she said, Well, then why did you get hurt? And I said, Don't know. We're gonna find that out. So it was in that time of those first 12 private lessons I got with Joan Martin, that she helped me feel lying supine on the Cadillac. Simple thing. I was in a lot of pain in my pelvis and my legs, and my back hurt a lot, and my knees hurt a lot. Everything hurt. I was in a lot of pain. She we learned how to do simple leg slide with keeping my pelvis organized, my rib cage down, all of the things that should be happening when you do movement qualitatively without pain. I was crying a lot. It was like, oh my God, I'm relearning how to be myself. This is amazing. So that that said to me, it's time. It's time to stop dancing, it's time to not be hurting, it's time to go do this thing I wanted to do in Colorado, which I wasn't ready for. I think I'm ready now to then look at it to help other people feel this way. Because Joan was really, and the work was really helping me return to my life. Like I was like getting out of pain. All of the things that we know it to be, you know, I was experiencing.

SPEAKER_00

It's so interesting, isn't it? Because yeah, you sort of, as a non-dancer myself, you sort of see the dancers and think, oh my god, they're so in touch with their bodies, and you know, they must know all this stuff. But it's so interesting that the people who really came into Pilates and knew about it really early on, nearly I think every one of them was dancers. They discovered it through their dance and how this different type of movement made them feel so different. And I was just chatting, one of my team members, she's a really, really great physical like trainer, and she's been doing some work with me. And she's so strong and she's so flat, and it's amazing seeing what she can do. And she says, you know, she comes to the studio and it's such a different experience. And when I go to her practice, it's such a different experience. And Pilates is so interesting, isn't it? How it just seems to work in such a different way. And the thing that I hear from so many guests is that kind of internal, like getting to know yourself more because you slow down and you feel and you notice and you make decisions from like inside. And I I'm not sure there's many other things where people, I mean, it's like in every conversation I have, Amy, where people talk about that.

SPEAKER_01

I love that, Nick. And I agree 100%. It is this mysterious, like, invitation to get to know yourself. And it will like, wow, what aren't we so blessed that we have this system? This I'm looking at my Cadillac right now, that we can come to over and over and over again, all of the apparatus to every day to come on it and play with it and be on it and say, what, where am I on this right now? Or if they're, you know, I think we all kind of have a certain few things in our bodies as we're getting older, maybe that talk to us a little more regularly. Where thank goodness, and I know we know to how to get out of that symptomatic discomfort/slash pain without having to worry about it and no, not rush to a doctor and go, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Instead, no, I know how to do this. And again, so blessed to rehab ourselves.

SPEAKER_00

I feel so blessed. I feel exactly the same. You know, I have a bad night's sleep, or I'm on a hotel bed, or I've been on an aeroplane, or I don't know, something happens. And I feel empowered that I'm like, I just I have this little toolbox and you know, 15, 20 minutes even, and I can kind of unravel it. And a friend of mine is a nurse and she works with the elderly, helping them stay in their homes and not go into the and but she said, you know, they're being pumped full of painkillers and medication at no point. And she's a big client of our studio, she goes, at no point, as anyone said, have some movement. Have you do you know how to do this? And it's a really interesting point, isn't it? Because I feel I think how many people get themselves into such a pickle and they Their bad back is forever, like it it owns them. And you know, and then but it is lovely when those people then come to us. It's amazing to be able to share this gift with them and to give them a practice that they can do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I love that too. And I come from that spirit of and we are I think many of us do we we get to share this with our clients. And I I feel that to be in private sessions and groups also, depending on what the vibe is and the intention. But almost all of the people I'm working with privately right now are working through and with something that they would rather not have to go to a doctor for, you know. And so they're they're seeking it through movement and dialogue with me and my eyes to say, oh, oh, all I see is a little bit whatever, you know, or interesting. I think you need more of this for homework. Will you do that? That's true, you know, make sure you do your homework. They're motivated, and and that's exciting, you know, and their guide for that. And I'm take that on with such a, you know, again, so honored to be guiding people to move well, as my teachers allowed me to. It's just a beautiful, you know, what we have for one another.

SPEAKER_00

And I think you mentioned about prerequisites earlier. I think it is an interesting point because I think the people who do really well in this world are the people whose lives were changed themselves. Like it sounds like yours was you had this injury, same with me. I had seen every specialist known to man, all the inverted commas proper people, you know, the doctors, the consultants, and no one got me better. And it was Pilates that got me better. And I'm so I I I opened a studio because I was, I have to do this for more people. Like I left my marketing job. I said, this is my this is my calling, this is what I'm meant to do. Um, and it's interesting now because Pilates is so popular, people are coming, and I get people asking to come on my courses, and they're like, oh yeah, I well, sometimes they've never done any, actually. I've had one person who's never done any. I've had some people who, you know, have maybe done a few classes, and you never want to put them off. Like, I I don't. I never want to put them off. But I think it's a it's a big mountain to climb, and I'm always really honest about that because you know, you're trying to learn to teach when you haven't learned this in your own body. But what do you think about prerequisites, Amy?

SPEAKER_01

Well, okay, so I have a strong opinion about that. I think when I was going through my course with Madeline and Physical Mind Institute, I it was it felt more serious too. I that was again very early in the teacher training kind of part of the industry. I think I had a head start because I had done so much prior, not so much, but a few years, several years worth, versus some of the other gals in my course, not as much. And there were only two of us out of the group that were asked to stay out as apprentices at that studio. When we were ready to test out, we had to fly to Santa Fe and take the test in front of Joan Breibart, and it was a bigger deal, right? And she was tough. Everything was they were tough. It was like tough. You would we didn't just get like good, beautiful, good, great, come on. No, it was a little more. No, you're not ready, or and I'll get more to that in a second, but prerequisites. If all courses could or teach your programs today, if all courses could have prerequisites, I think it would be a really great thing. I know that's not a possibility for all courses to say a minimum of one year's worth of teaching. We need to see 50 private sessions, we need to see, or can they? And if they and if they I think they can, maybe not the big ones, but I I think anyone can. It's are they?

SPEAKER_00

You know, they're not. And you definitely see the difference. I I I've had people come on my courses who have done that. There's I was just in a class with one of my graduates, actually, it's such a great class. But I remember before she she signed up to the course about six months out, and she spent six months doing privates twice a week, and you could really tell. She was so committed, you could really tell. And when you try and, you know, when people book courses out, I always say to them, it's great that you've booked it early. You've now made this commitment. So do as much as you can because it's gonna really get you into this world completely. So I I do get it, but then it's hard, isn't it? Because then some people, I guess if there's a bit of a cost issue there and things like that. But it's trying to get them to do as much as as they can, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I know it's not a reality for everyone. And I I I this is a huge conversation. We know that this is all it's just growing like what crazy. Um, and it's great in so many ways. And it's also a detriment that we don't have a little more strict path for them to like, no, you can't come in to become a teacher until you've been a student for a while. It doesn't make sense to me. I would never go like this the analogy a lot of people make, you know, I want to be a piano teacher. Well, how many years of playing piano? Well, you know, I I just took a no. That's such a good point, you know, and I don't I don't mean that in any ill, anything ill at all. It's I want teachers, I want people who are interested to become a Pilates teacher to be amazing and to want to stay in it for long term, to make it their career, their profession, their everything. And I I don't know if if they don't start out with being a student to really feel it in their bones and their blood when they go to bed at night, wow, that exercise today, and all to have it really swirling and become so much of them that curiosity that then makes them want to stay devoted and inspired and motivated rather than you know hopping in and just kind of doing it. And I don't mean that in any negative, it's just so curriculum, could there be prerequisites? It would be amazing if if that could happen. I know it's not always true. And I have an example of a young gal a couple years ago contacted me through email and introduced herself. I mean, I just started a teacher training program and my my course director said I needed a mentor. Would you take me on? It was a little longer email than that. And I said, sure, let's let's have a chat. So the chat was, how much Pilates experience have you had? Well, I've taken a few classes and it felt great. And I I just joined a program. I'm like, perfect, because it was perfect, and I looked at that as a fantastic opportunity to look at this gorgeous body who showed up with complete vulnerability. She knew she didn't know much, but she was willing to be in front of a teacher who knows uh quite a bit courageously, and for me to say, we've got work to do, it's great. I'm so glad you're here. She became a weekly mentee for three years for me. She graduated, she went through balanced body. In this whole course, we've been talking about the difference between traditional, classical, can all the things she came in every week, very curious. Questions about what's this, what's that, what's that? And I would just offer information. Here, go look at this link, go watch this, go look at this teacher. That's me teaching, right? And mentoring. And from that, she realized, wow, I don't, uh I'd like to know where this really started. Help. So she's kind of going leaning a little more toward the traditional coursework right now. Anyway, it's so exciting. So that's mentorship, Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_00

Talk to me about your mentorship work, Amy, because that's that's so interesting. I mentor people now. What's the best, like you've been mentoring a long time? How do you become a really great mentor? Like what, you know, is because I think students come in and they ask you, and I get emails now that I do this podcast and people, you know, can you mention? I'm a bit like, I don't really know how I would do that. I don't know if I've got time either. But I think it's a really interesting point because I also talk a lot about how the courses are never enough, even the great ones. Like you need to be mentored and you need to be mentored even when you're qualified, and this is a forever learning piece. So if you were to help mentor mentors as such, what would that look like? Yeah. Like what would that look like? How, what should mentors, what would mentoring be? What should people be, you know? I because sometimes I think I love when the students come in and they've got the questions, and and then some people come in and they're like, well, I'm just here and I've made my session. You kind of help me. And I'm like, oh, okay, where are we at with this? So how how could we start? Because there's lots of really experienced teachers listening to this podcast who I think are passionate about uplifting this world. So, how could they start to do that by mentoring?

SPEAKER_01

I agree, Nick. Thank you. Well, there's lots of different kinds of mentors. I think that's the first, maybe a first thing to mention. Someone might be needing mentorship in their business skills. They might seek out someone for business mentorship. You know, someone might like a studio owner, might be that a new teacher. Is that more of what you want to maybe talk go into that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a new teacher. Because I think I'm getting a lot of messages now from new teachers who are now listening to these conversations and thinking, wow, I'm realizing I don't know very much, which is great. It's kind of partly why I did this podcast. And they're now seeking mentors. So, you know, it's I suppose it's a question around who could they seek, but also if if someone comes to you, if someone's listened to this, they come to you, you're an experienced teacher and they say, right, can I, you know, like that person reached out to you. How do we approach it as mentors? How can we be good mentors if we're experienced teachers now?

SPEAKER_01

I think one case by case is what I would say to them, what do you what what do you need? Just for like, what do you need? What do you feel like I can help you with? And it really needs to be them that tell asks us what we in what they need. And I would even say, have you looked at other people? Who else have you researched as a mentor? Why me? Why have you come to see me or ask me for my guidance, my teaching, my advice? Why me? And you know, and ask because then it helps me shape it. And because no one teacher is going to come and have the same questions, I don't think. So I think it'd be uh for me as a mentor, I like to have a really independent individual relationship with that teacher. And then we talk about how much investment can, you know, what's your investment time-wise, financially? Uh is it once a month, a meeting on Zoom? Do you want me to watch your form? Do we would just want to have question and answer together? You know, is it the the professionalism of Pilates industry? Is it the teaching tools, the teaching skills? Uh, you know, uh so I don't I don't have an official mentorship program and here's what it looks like bullet point, bullet point, bullet point. I intend to. But I love individual connection. And to me, that feels very authentic for Amy Havens is hey, let's chat. What do you what do you want to do? You know, what do you how do you want to be as a teacher? How can I help you?

SPEAKER_00

It reminds me of the way you explain working with clients and that individual, you know, you don't give everyone the same like exercise program. You can't, can you? So I love the way that you frame that. And am I right in thinking, Amy, you've been a bit of a forever student, you've done lots and lots of trainings with different people. Am I right in saying that? Tell me a little bit about that. And has it has it felt interesting to be able to look at Pilates from all the different kinds of spokes that there are? And has, you know, has it all given you different things?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it has, and I love learning. I am such a curious person. I love to ask why. I love to know. I'm a huge thinker. So for me to keep going into programs and learning more, I I why not, you know. So I so at the first kind of experience of that I went through physical mind. And I think then maybe right when I tested out, I was in San Francisco at the time, and there was in Mill Valley, Rail was doing a workshop, maybe like two weekends later, on working with the male client. I had already started teaching at a couple different studios in where I lived, and I was getting male clients. And I thought, well, that's an interesting take on things. What would be different? I better know how. There must be, he's it's a whole workshop based on male clients. I should know that there's something different I should know to be responsible as a teacher. That workshop was so hard. I remember that. It was so hard, but so fun. And that was the first time I met Raya, and that would got me curious. So I was like, what's this Vassie program? Darn it. I just finished this one, which was a little more eve gentry-ish, a little more, you know. The way that Madeline laid that out was a slower rhythm. It felt like this. Like the rhythm was slower and and more mindful and less worky outy. Right. And I love that too. I love that. It's safe. It felt very safe.

SPEAKER_00

I love that too. That's my kind of go-to.

SPEAKER_01

And that's how I that's how I I think how I mostly am as a teacher. But then when I got into that workshop with Rail, it was like, whoa, this is different. This is more, this is masculine, obviously it was a for a men, but his drive and his uh attention and his like you know, sideovers, I almost literally almost threw up on him. I'm like, I really, it was so hard for and shaking, and that fire that he has was like, I want some more of that. I'd like to loan, I'd like to learn that. So I started doing lots of workshops with Bassie, lots, anything I could. And then that led to taking master mentor program with him, and that in one of them, I don't remember which one, it was a big room full of amazing people, and they were all Bassie, except for me and one other gal. And we go around the room, and Rail wanted everybody to introduce themselves, and I introduced myself. By that point, I'd also done a lot of Fletcher because I'd met Pat Gyton and done a lot of that. And Rail was like, wait, you're not a Bassie girl? And I said, I look I said, no, am I okay to be here? I said, all these years you're not a Bassie girl. And I said, Nope. But thank you because I you know, I I respect you so much, and I'll do, you know, and I love Pat and I love Kara. And I love, you know, it's just because I like to learn. And I think it's really important for teachers to just keep digesting, keep learning more. And so what I got from Rayle was a different kind of attack, a different kind of detail. Some things were just really unobtainable for my body, and that's okay. Uh right, and then I meet Pat Gyton, and she same thing. It was a cold morning. Ron was still alive. There was a mat class at 8 a.m. in Long Beach. It was a Pilates on tour, and I decided that whole weekend to do all Fletcher teachers, Diane Diefendurfer and Pat and Ron, and who else was there? Because why else? I wanted to learn some Fletcher lineage, and there they were. And it was an eight o'clock in the morning mat class, cold. It was November. I walk in the room, and the room was filled with spine correctors. And I look up at the door and I look at my, you know, thing. I'm like, this is math class. Pat was already sitting in the room waiting, as she does, sitting on her spine corrector. And she's like, no, no, come on in. You're you're fine. I know it says math, but just come on in. So we all filter in and we sit down, and she looked at the all of us sitting there, and she said, There's no way in hell I would give you math class at 8 a.m. on a cold floor. You need to warm up your bodies. We're gonna be on them on the spine corrector doing mat on the spine corrector. That was the first time I met that woman. I'd seen her in conferences, but you're right. And I'm like, I love her. Thank you. She respected the environment. She knew the bodies weren't gonna be ready to sit down on the mat and just go for it. No. Anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So so many, I mean, so many influences. And how has that sort of shaped you as a teacher, Amy?

SPEAKER_01

I think it shaped me because one thing isn't for all. And I know Kathy Grant's phrase one size isn't for one, one doesn't fit all. And that's true. So I can look at a male client now and maybe give them a little bit of the real kind of vibe, but sometimes they need a little more of the gentry feel. Maybe they need a little Kathy Grant sprinkle. Most often they need some breathing rhythm, you know, or some breath focus. I got a lot of that from Pat. So I feel like it's just enriched my ability to offer holistic, embodied work to anyone who comes to me. Young, old.

SPEAKER_00

And it's interesting the way you approach that Pilates on tour. I think that's quite an interesting idea, isn't it? When we go to things like this, and there's a huge, usually a huge sway of different teachers there at these kind of conferences, actually having a strategy of why you might go to something else. So we can often be like, I love this teacher, so I want to go and see them, and that's great. But I I, when I went to the Pilates Expo, I was like, I want to go and see people I've never seen before and get a sense. And it is interesting, and sometimes you think this is great, and I you take little bits home. And sometimes I think you go, This isn't, this doesn't speak to me. And that's quite nice too. I go, that's okay. This doesn't make me feel good. Um it doesn't mean it's it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just there's loads of people in the room who are loving this, but this is not. I came away from that event feeling really clear in my ethos as a studio. I was like, that's not what I am over there. And there were these bits over here that I, you know, like your class. I was like, this is very much like what I love it, and it was really nice to feel that. So it's interesting to think about all those experiences.

SPEAKER_01

I I love the word feel. So you felt something. So this is a felt sense practice, right? And so I truly believe that. It's like I look back on all my aha's. It wasn't because I was thinking, it was I felt something. I felt something land. And yes, it's between between this thing, it's the brain and a thinker, and this bigger thing down here, which is my body, and what's in between is his soul. Like this whole thing has to have a mm-hmm, aha. Yeah more than the thinking. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I I often wonder if part of the reason I like some of that slower thing is that I am of I think a million miles an hour. I my life is very fast, everything is fast. So I love, you know, when I go to class and there's this invitation to slow down. But I imagine if you're like, my lovely husband is very different to me. It's why we work very well as a couple. Very slow, very chill, you know, and he's big into his running and he's big, you know, he can, I guess he needs movement like that. So that's I guess that's the point, isn't it? Like the person going into those classes is gonna maybe need different things. And that's that's great. That's why it's great to have this array of opportunities out there within the world of Pilates.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. I think so. The work that weekend that I had with Pat, it was that spine corrector work just opened my eyes. And it was something I wanted to really start tracking was the Fletcher work because it was very dance-based, also. And being a modern dancer, that it just I it made a lot of sense. And she had a discipline about her that I also was like, what is that? But I want to know more, I want to feel more of that and learn that. That's when the Fletcher program at that time had what were known as licensed, limited license to teach courses, limited license to teach spine corrector, barb, their mat, and their towel, I think. And I really wanted to do the spine corrector because I I learned a lot. There was a work workshop here in Santa Barbara that I took and from a Fletcher teacher here that Pat was giving. And the it was awesome. And it was also one of the hardest things I've ever done because it showed all of the things that my back needed to learn. All this wonderful flexion down here and to open it up. I couldn't write on my flexibility, could not. She saw it and she saw it, you know. And so we were licensed, we were taking a test that weekend to become a licensed uh uh offerer, you know, teacher. And I was the last person to get tested out, have a conversation with the the judges at the front of the room. It was it was kind of interesting. Everyone said, Oh my god, you did great. You were so good. Oh my god. And she she looked, she was listening to everybody. And I love this woman, like a sister. And she looked at me and she goes, I don't I don't agree with all of them. I don't agree with most of them. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And she goes, You're good and you can get better, you're not strong enough yet. But here's how you're going to. And then she laid out this whole plan just off the cuff. And I'm like, You got it. I can do that. So I started taking class religiously from Ken Gilbert here in Santa Barbara twice a week. I had a private and then I had a spine corrector class. I didn't teach class at my studio for a year until I felt like I could confidently sit on the corrector because I embodied it and go through the work so that I could see the other people in. My class, and I could help them get better, not me just sit here and do it right. So oh man, and and then the heritage work with Kara and you know learning Kathy's lineage, oh precious, important again, the slowing down, the small stuff matters so much. The small stuff matters so much. And you know, I think with Pilates teachers who might be hearing this, who if you're having people come to you that are in pain, and maybe you are like, oh no, I don't know how to work with a person in pain, you do you do know how to work with them. You get to slow them down, and it's about getting people to feel safe. That's a big thing. And feeling safe when you're in a body that's not in you know in dealing with pain, that's another step for us as teachers, a huge responsibility. So there are so many of us teachers that can help you get better with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So, Amy, you've been teaching a long time. You've seen this world of Pilates, you know, shift and grow and grow and grow and suddenly grow even more. What do you make of it now? And where do you see that there might be some challenges out there?

SPEAKER_01

This industry has grown so much so fast. It's a beautiful thing. I'm excited for it and I'm also scared to death. But I can see the two forks. There's this fitness track that's going like gangbusters, and then there's those of us that are, I'm gonna say, more on the healing element, the healing path. I'm over here forever. And I would encourage anyone listening to this or as it spreads out, if you feel drawn to the more fitness, go for it, please, and go and do your best. Because we need over there too. And if you feel drawn to this over here, whatever this big bubble is, the softer, more healing element, the style that's you know the pace is different. Lean in. Go look. I think I feel this is gonna be needed more right. We need it now. Our world needs to, my opinion needs to embody slowing down, listening to our own breathing. Number one principle here is breath. Are we really breathing? Are some of us actually breathing? Are we? Or are we you know it? It's just a rhetorical question I'm asking myself too. Where do I see it going? I see it going in both places. I really do. Really well. Maybe a little too fast over here. Maybe some of this can be infused with this.

SPEAKER_00

There's sort of this pushback, isn't there, in our world around the fitness Pilates, like it's subpar. And I what do you think about that? I personally, I mean, I think I wish I wish it some of it could be taught better, I guess is my thinking sometimes. I think there's nothing wrong with that pushing and the intensity and being a bit more playful on the equipment and evolving it. But I think sometimes there's been a lot of training that's just very surface-level choreography. And I think if there was a little bit more depth, I actually think it would be taught really well. And not to remotely put Bassi in that camp, but Bassi do a great job of it's a really hard workout, but taught incredibly well. Um, so I just wondered what you think around that, you know, because this is, I think this is the pushback, you know, that there are elements of the Pilates world that get very offended by the fitness Pilates piece that it's not Pilates.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and I I am one of those. Sometimes I look and I I do say that out loud. That's not Pilates. And then another voice goes, but it's movement and isn't Pilates movement. Okay, there's a conversation there, and we all are having it. For those of us who are from lineages that came from Mr. Pilates himself, we know what the work is that we learned. We had lists, there was real discipline around level one to five. If your school had that, we learned you most likely needed to have these skills before you were kind of allowed to go to the higher levels. There was a certain reverence about it to me that I remember and still feel that I don't see happening now. Not that that's bad, but wouldn't it be something if there was a little more of that? Like a but the flip of that is the athletic reformer studios that are popping up all the time, reformer only an athletic reformer, Santa Barbara's got a lot now. What if out of that those those clients and those classes, people go, Well, I've also heard about this other place, and they do some research and they they come into a room where there are Cadillacs and an armchair in this barrel and a ladder, and they're like, Well, that's not Pilates. They might say that to us, where we can go, oh, like, well, yes, it is. Would you like to? Can we come on in? So maybe there's a way to invite them on over here where we might not want to go play over there because we're like, that's not Pilates, but maybe it is.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's a challenge for clients as well, isn't it? Sometimes like it's all called it's all called the same thing. So here I am, I've got I'm in pain, or maybe not a lot of pain, but I'm like, oh, I've got a bit of a bad back, I've got a bit of a sore knee, I struggle with my running. I've heard Pilates is really good for that. If I go to a certain kind of studio, that's not gonna help me, actually. Not really. Uh it's movement, movement is good. But I this is a conversation that's come up a lot, is maybe we need to do some sort of definition of the styles. Or as studio owners, I've been asked to be on a panel shortly, and one of the topics I was gonna say is to studio owners is I think as studio owners, we should all do a better job of describing our studios better so clients know what to expect and can do research and figure out that my studio, there's me and another lady in my city. I was the first person to open a reformer studio, and then she opened one, and I remember thinking, um, I've I'm have I only been successful because I'm the only one. And actually, she opened very different ethos to mine, does it very well. She thrives and her studio thrives, and my studio thrives. And the clients are very different. And it's very clear, you know, if you even if you read their Google reviews compared to ours, completely different words, completely different things said. And that's brilliant. And I wish more people would do that. But of course, all the studios keep opening up and it's Reforma Pilates, Reforma Pilates, or the Pilates ethos, mindful movement. And it couldn't be less mindful if it tried. But now it all says the same thing. And I wish studio owners would take a bit of responsibility. I know we don't have set names, but I think we could do better with describing it because there's I I'm with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, all movement is good, but just let people know on for the most part. Yeah. But at least let people know what they're walking into, you know?

SPEAKER_01

It's true. Because and I, I mean, a few years ago I had a young gal come, and she was, she was young, pop, meaning in her 20s. No, I'm 56. She was in her, she's young, and she wanted a certain something. I know she did, because her intakes had a certain, but she had also just had a baby, she had some SI, she was in some pain. Okay, so I'm coming in. I see that, I'm like, oh, you know, let's breathe, let's get your parasympathetic going, do get you calmed down. Because I know that's where healing happens. That was the furthest thing from her mind. She wanted to get on the reformer and get going. And I we had three sessions, I think, and she she was the one who said, This is not what I was looking for. And I said, fantastic, great. She wanted to go classes, reformer classes, and work out.

SPEAKER_00

That's an interesting challenge for teachers, isn't it? Where you see what they need, but it's not really what they want, and that balance of how you might try and find somewhere in the middle. And that's a great example. I've definitely had clients like that myself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I also think, and this is tricky, maybe, and maybe it's I don't know if I know I didn't possess this skill when I was a newer teacher, but not all clients are meant to come. Like, I'm not supposed to work with certain people. I don't really work well with those that want to have only that. I can. I can push, I can in a beautiful, loving, like soft way, like, but I'm not like, you know, yeah. So I think those that teachers that are listening to you, you you can't be to everybody.

SPEAKER_00

You cannot be the teacher. I think that's such an important message. I I had an I have one of my mentors share this with me because you get very upset when you're a new teacher that someone doesn't come back, but it's like maybe they're not re and also if you do teach in this way, it's deep, and people might not be ready to go to that place in themselves. So they want to stay up there.

SPEAKER_01

You're right on it, and that's so true. And that exactly, it's like, didn't Mr. Piletti say Rome wasn't built in a day? I say that all the time. I feel like it was in return to life, and it's true, like in with our own teaching skills, and and where you are, where I am, where I'm many, boy, the wisdom that we have. And it's I I honor that, you know. And I look when I was a younger teacher, I looked at Elizabeth Larkam, I looked at uh Madeline, I looked at all the for having that, and I was like, gosh, I hope I have that someday. And I'm getting there, you know, and so I see the newer teachers who don't know what they don't know yet, and that's also amazing.

SPEAKER_00

It's they don't know what they don't know. And that's an important point. They don't know. And I think that's okay, but I uh one of the things that I feel very lucky that when I when I have my teacher training with Polestar, there was very much from the beginning this idea that you would always be curious and you would keep so you know, you'd go on these courses and you'd either with Polestar or with other people and you would do that. And I think sometimes that message hasn't got across to some people in teacher training. So they think their course is like that's it. And it isn't because here you are 30 years in and you're still learning, Amy, and you're still open and you're still saying, I'm not there. I I personally find that really interesting and exciting. You know, it's like, why would I want to know it all? That's really boring. I say that to clients too, and they're like, I can't do that. I'm like, if you could do it, you wouldn't be here. So it makes it fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, what else is there to know? There's so much still to know. And I love that I don't know what I don't know, you know, and so I can say, how much more fascia research can I go study? How much more can I do learning about how to work with my own hands with people? How uh when I do come in contact with a client who's in either emotional pain or physical pain or a combination of the both, sometimes uh my restorative yoga training I did a few years ago with for myself, I use quite a bit of that in those moments. Uh, I and I feel really grateful for all of those pieces, you know. But I remember something too, and I like to if you kind of know here what I'm saying, I I like to give the credit back to somebody if I learned it, right? So I think that's important. It doesn't, it's not a shield I carry, but it's something I do carry. Is Madeline said in our training, don't expect too much. Don't expect yourself to learn all of this advanced work. Don't teach too much too soon, I think was her actual quote. Don't teach too much too soon. The client doesn't know how much you know. Don't worry about how much you're stuffing in the session. Quality over quantity will always be the successful outcome. We know so much more than the client. So if we're rushing it, you know, but that's also a learning curve. And I know when I was first out of school, I was like, look how much I know. And it's like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00

And I think now for teachers qualifying today, there's so much content online out there. I didn't really, even in like 15 years ago, there wasn't really. So I kind of just taught for a long time what I had been taught. And I maybe played with it a little bit, but not really. And then I knew it really well. So now when I try and be more creative and play with things and go, oh, I'm quite inspired by that, like it comes from this really solid base of many, many, many years of, you know, really just teaching the repertoire with maybe a few little variations. I feel like I see people come out, they get themselves very confused because they're trying to be too creative too quickly without knowing, just as you said, the basics of this are still brand new to most clients and they're blown away by it. So just teach that and teach it well to learn it. You know, and I think I see lots of creative classes actually taught quite poorly because they haven't mastered the fundamentals that make that creativity land well.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. Yeah, I that's a whole nother, you know, there's a two-hour conversation. It's a whole nother conversation, part two, part two, but it it is, and you know, again, it's in an ideal world, we could roll back the clocks 30 years and it still reproduce the training programs in the way that they were being laid out then, that were smaller numbers, took longer, but that's just not the world we're in. And we all realize that. So it's a faster, faster track. And we don't all have to do that. Many if we if anyone listening, uh, you can slow it down. It might mean you have to, you not have to, you get to compromise something. Maybe it's, you know, and and that's I'll leave everyone for thinking that on their own.

SPEAKER_00

But you know, I think this is great. I do it's and it's a great, I think it's a great point to leave people thinking with because I I always just think, can we the basics taught well is powerful, actually. And it and sometimes I think that's that's just a nice way to to do it and and not get so I think I would imagine I would get caught up now. I'm sure you would too, Madeline. Uh good queen Madeline. Anyway, you would get caught up with if you, you know, if you were straight out today with all that enthusiasm from your time with Madeline, as I was gonna say, you know, how easily we would get caught up in these things. But yes, it's an interesting thing. Um, to end our conversations, I always ask some quickish fire questions, if I may. Um, is there a Pilates exercise that you come back to in your own practice again and again? Shorts, I know lots of people say short spine. I love short spine, it's so good. Is there a cue that you find yourself saying over and over again?

SPEAKER_01

I think I'm a breather cuer, I'm a breath cure, but if there was more, probably navel to the navel to the lowest part of your lower back. Because I need length back there and down that direction. So what quality do you most admire in a teacher? Patience and compassion. They're on the same line.

SPEAKER_00

And what keeps you inspired after so many years in this work? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01

What keeps me inspired? My own body and it's changing. Really? You know? So I'm curious about this changing body. So when I and all my clients is changing body. So it's a curiosity, I think, that keeps me most interested, you know, and and that brings me back to the learning thing. It's like there would there's never an end to learning about this and being curious about how do I, how can I move better?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And what gift has Pilates given you personally?

SPEAKER_01

Along that line with the body is I think self-acceptance and self-compassion. And just knowing that it's it's what I had when I was a new teacher, when I had what I had when I was a dancer, I do not have now. But I have now what I never had then, which is the wisdom and the the self-kindness and self-love of like, hey, it's gonna keep changing. And if if you hear the loud stuff saying, oh, I can't do that anymore. Oh, no. Have a memory with that. And in a like a that was so amazing that I used to do that so well. And look at all the things I'm doing better now than I did back then.

SPEAKER_00

And that's a challenge, isn't it? Is it's a challenge myself as well. You start seeing your face changing and your body changing, and it's this, it's an it's an interesting thing. And I I had actually had an experience when I was in Los Angeles, I was tired, I was jet lagged, I, you know, and it was a very like there was it was quite indoor this event. So I think the light, there wasn't enough light. And I would look at myself in the mirror, and I all I could see were all the things that, you know, I didn't see that were right. I did a class, came out, looked in the mirror, and no one ever liked it. Felt like I'd had a facelift. I looked and was like, I look great. What am I on about? And for me, that's what Pilates does. I just, it's exactly as you said, that like you learn to accept yourself. I want clients to walk out and feel that they're amazing today, not from a 30-day program or a six-week plan, but like right now, you are awesome just as you are. And that's just how you kind of so beautifully said that.

SPEAKER_01

And you too, just there. Yeah, it's like we have one body. This is it for however long we're here. As far as I know, I mean, that could change after we pass away, come back in another body. That's spiritual Pilates. Well, my studio is soul Pilates, so it will work on the other side as well. I love it. Well, I mean, I know I'm an old soul. I've been here somewhere, I've been here a few different times. I'm pretty sure. So, but for what I know now is this is the body I'm in. I have it. I love her. Some days more than others, some days less than others. But at the end of the day, I've got to say to myself, you did a great job. Keep going, you know. Wow. And just really I try to have that mindset. It's not always easy, and I don't do it well all the time. But and and then I think I have that spirit as a teacher to people. It's like, don't worry, you'll get it next time. You know, did you take a good breath? Do you feel better? And everyone that walks out the door says I they always don't they always, every teacher that's listening, they always say that.

SPEAKER_00

And even today, I had such anxiety this morning. I really didn't have a lot of time. I still went and did a class. I came out the class, I was like, I feel so much better. I feel so much better. And I love that. And I sort of joke that, well, of course I've worked my body, and I I mean, you can't not do that, but that's not why I do it. And it is, I love how it calms you down so much. But I mean, that's the style that my studio has, and it sounds like, you know, I swear I loved your class. It blew me away. 7:30 in the morning. It was a wonderful class. Me and my colleague Rachel were there, and we were like, we need more Amy Havens in our life. So now I've been watching all your Pilates Anytime videos. I just got a chair in my, because I can't fit a reformer. I got a chair. So I've been doing your chair classes. I've been doing, I've done a few of them. I've done the one where you had some um, well, do you know what? We had an aligned Pilates chair at the studio. If I'm honest, I didn't really like. So I got a balanced body one in the studio. And then I took the aligned chair home. But actually, it fits really nicely in my kitchen. So it works really well. It's in my kitchen. Um, so I've been doing your like chair classes with it's been rich. Do you know what? It's been really fun actually to explore. You know, you I've been doing this a long time now, not as long as you, but you kind of go, oh, I kind of know it. And it's been funny to have just one piece of apparatus and then start to go, oh, this is interesting how you would program this. And then I watched your class, I did your class that was with one of the, I think the original Wonder Chairs, and my legs were, I mean, really sore for days. It was great, you know, and so it's been nice actually to, you know, and that's kind of the point that you made right at the beginning of the conversation around these different experiences and different vibes. It's it does challenge your body in a different way. And that's nice, you know, 20 years into practicing Pilates that I still I had that from, you know, watching your classes. It's great.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, even something like this spring, okay, this is a deper lesson spring versus balanced body versus cross. I have different sets of springs in here so that I can feel, continue to feel like I versus then clients to go, oh, that one's feeling a little easy. Let's try this one, you know. And that's also keeps infusing curiosity, excitement, wonder, newness, and things.

SPEAKER_00

And I love that. I love that. And I feel very inspired myself if I can say that this idea that actually going to look at different trainings like that and different equipment and seeing it, because I think the reason I've struggled a bit with the align chair in my studio is we're a balanced body studio. So I'm so used to the feel of those springs. And so suddenly the springs are different. And in my mind, I was going, I don't like this. But actually, now I've got it at home. I'm quite enjoying exploring it. And so that's really fun. But um anyway, I could go on forever, Amy, with you. This is such a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. If people want to work with you, how can they do that, Amy?

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, email me. Can I give that out online?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I'll I'll put the link in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, it's just Amy C. My middle initial is Christine. Amy Christine. So Amy C Havens at Gmail. Or find me on Instagram, move with Amy Havens, my website, move with Amyhavens.com.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'd love to meet everybody or any.

SPEAKER_00

No, and I love it. I love it as well. When you do do when you're on your Pilates Anytime videos, you're always met you, you talk about the people who've commented last time and said things like it. Clearly, you've got this wonderful community, and I can totally see why. So thank you so much for joining me and having this conversation. And you're absolutely right. I think we have to do a part two because there's so much we could have talked about.

SPEAKER_01

I'd love a part two. There's so much more to talk about. Yeah. And and and I would honor that and welcome that anytime, Nick. So thank you. Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_00

A huge thank you to Amy for joining me. She got up super early in California to have this conversation with me. I, as I said at the beginning, I experienced Amy's teaching when I saw her at an event in Los Angeles when I was there in January. The class really stood out to me, and having this conversation with her today, I could really understand why. So interesting to hear. Her take on, you know, all the different lineages and how that has impacted her, brought her out as a teacher, the way that she mentors, how she thinks about working with clients, and how she thinks about mentoring people. It was just an absolute joy to talk to her. There were so many things I'd written down that I wanted to get to. So maybe as she suggested, we have to have a part two at some point. But I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as me. I certainly feel incredibly inspired. And if you want to inspire people, do share the podcast with any of your fellow teachers or really enthusiastic Pilates clients. It's been amazing to hear how they are getting to know these amazing people from the world of Pilates through these conversations. So it's brilliant to have you here. It'll be even better to have your friends and colleagues. So stay curious, stay grounded, and I'll see you on another episode of Beyond the Reformer. New episodes are out every Monday, so I'll see you then.