Beyond the Reformer

Beyond Classical: Ron Fletcher's Pilates Legacy With Kyria Sabin

• Nic Lenny

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"The body floats on the breath. Without the breath, we don't have a core. We don't have a centre." - Kyria Sabin

In this episode, we are joined by Kyria Sabin, director of Fletcher Pilates International and one of the most respected custodians of a first-generation Pilates lineage in the world. Kyria worked directly with Ron Fletcher - a first-generation teacher who studied with Joseph and Clara Pilates and danced with Martha Graham - and has dedicated her career to preserving and evolving his approach to the method. Her path into Pilates was never planned; she was heading towards law school when a session at the Ron Fletcher Studio changed everything.

Kyria and Nic explore what it truly means to carry a lineage forward, why the "classical vs contemporary" debate misses the point, and what made Ron Fletcher's approach so unique - from his movement-based philosophy to his breath-centred teaching.

They take an honest look at the current state of Pilates education, the dangers of watered-down training, the rise of reformer-only studios, and what it actually takes to establish meaningful standards for the industry. And they go deeper into the spiritual dimension of Pilates - why client transformation so often shows up in relationships and sense of self first, and what Ron Fletcher would likely say if he saw where Pilates is today. (Spoiler: it's one word.)


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Kyria Sabin

00:10 Carrying Ron Fletcher's legacy - responsibility and blessing

04:47 What makes the Fletcher approach unique

08:31 Classical vs contemporary - why the conversation misses the point

12:42 Kyria's journey: from art world to Pilates

15:38 How Kyria trained - the apprenticeship model

17:24 Life in Tucson and accidentally staying for 35 years

18:39 The gift of seeing bodies and learning to teach

21:57 Taking over Fletcher Pilates International

23:13 Building a cohesive studio culture and team

26:35 Creating the Fletcher Pilates teacher training programme

28:39 What goes into a quality Pilates education

32:39 The 12-step framework that underpins the Fletcher programme

34:02 Why Pilates transformation shows up in clients' lives, not just bodies

38:45 What defines a high-quality teacher training programme

43:55 Should reformer teachers still be comprehensively trained?

56:29 What excites Kyria about the future of Pilates

58:21 What concerns her about where the industry is heading

01:00:22 Quick-fire questions

01:02:26 Where to find Kyria


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SPEAKER_00

Coming up on today's episode of Beyond the Reformer.

SPEAKER_02

I do. I feel a huge responsibility and also a blessing. It was not my intention to become a Pilates teacher.

SPEAKER_00

On today's episode, I'm joined by Kira Sabin, Director of Fletcher Pilates International, longtime student of Ron Fletcher. I'm one of the figures carrying forward one of the Pilates lineages today.

SPEAKER_02

I was completely mesmerized by the detail of the work, by how my body felt. At the end of the session, I felt put together. I felt like my body was cracked. And I didn't meet Ron until a year later. I went to a workshop that he was teaching in Denver and was again completely mesmerized by him, his choice deviv. He was just so full of life. And I caught the bug. The second day of the workshop, he called me into the studio office. I thought he was gonna ask me to leave. And he said if you considered teaching this to work.

SPEAKER_00

Hello everybody, and welcome back to Beyond the Reformer. I'm Nick Lenny, I'm a studio owner, the Pilates teacher and educator, and your host for these conversations. Exploring the people and ideas shaping Pilates world today. Today's conversation was such a fascinating one for me because Kira represents a direct connection to the history of Pilates through her many years working with Ron Fletcher. In this episode, we talk about the Fletcher work, what makes it so distinctive, and the responsibility of carrying forward one of the lineages while allowing the method to continue to evolve. We also dive into Pilates education, teaching standards. Kiria has a lot to say on that, and what truly makes a great teacher. Kiria has spent decades thinking deeply about this. It's been so great to connect with some of you. I know some of you have booked calls with me to join my teacher training courses. I am running a comprehensive course in Bristol in the UK in July. This is a 12-month course, and I'm running a seven-month, three-in-person weekends reformer course in Oxfordshire. I'm partnering with a studio there. It's going to be amazing. I'm really looking forward to that one. And then we'll have another reformer course which will be announced soon, that will be in September back in Bristol. So it's been so great. I've spoken to some of you who are based London and the Southeast, looking to join us in Oxfordshire. And I'm really looking forward to running this course. It's been fabulous to look at putting a course together that really is bringing to life what we talk about every week on this podcast. The depth, the ethos, the skills that are needed, the openness, the openness to learn more within the course and beyond the course. So I'm so excited to bring this to a new studio. We are expanding Soul Education, my education platform, beyond Bristol. So we're looking to work with studio owners who can support us with the mentorship because that's really important to me. It's not good enough to just have a course, I think, these days. You need to get embedded into a studio and have mentorship within that studio. So that's something that's worked really well for us in Bristol. And it's been great to expand it towards Dr Pilates over in Oxfordshire. And now we're looking to expand it throughout the UK, Ireland, and we've got some opportunities in Europe as well. Before we get into today's conversation, I've just got a small favor to ask. Could you click that button, the like, subscribe, follow on whatever platform you're listening or watching to us on? You can now watch these videos on Spotify as well as on YouTube. This is a small metric. It really helps the podcast get measured, allows us to get guests, get funding. So it's a really small thing you can do, but a big thing to help us. Okay, let's get going with today's conversation. Kira, it is so wonderful to have you on Beyond the Reformer. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm delighted to be here. I'd like to start straight away with your work with Ron Fletcher. Obviously, you worked very closely with him. He's a first-generation teacher. We worked with Joseph and Clara Pilates. Do you feel a responsibility about carrying forward one of these lineages into the Pilates world today?

SPEAKER_02

I do. I feel a huge responsibility and also a blessing. I mean, it was um not my intention to become a Pilates teacher. I ended up going to Braun Studio in Los Angeles when I was still working in the art world and was just very much into fitness and wanted to uh find um a method that I could practice for the rest of my life. And a friend of mine suggested Pilates. It wasn't really called Pilates at the time, and um and suggested I go to the Fletcher Studio, the Ron Fletcher Studio in Los Angeles. I didn't know anything about the work, and uh my first session um uh was was just leg and footwork on the reformer, basically an hour of leg and footwork. And um I was used to doing things full out, and you know, it an hour wasn't enough. It had to be an hour and a half, and um and I was I was completely mesmerized by the detail of the work, by how my body felt at the end of the session. Um, I felt put together, you know, sort of Humpty Dumpty style. I felt like my body was was back in sync and um didn't meet Ron until a year later because he had already moved to Texas. And so um I thought if I'm going to the Ron Fletcher studio in Los Angeles, I should meet this guy, Ron Fletcher. And so I went to a workshop that he was teaching in Denver and was again completely mesmerized by him, by his attention to detail, by his um, he was then in his around 70 and uh just his his joie de vive, you know, he was just so full of life and and um and I caught the bug. And the second day of the workshop, he he called me into the studio office, and I I thought I was um, I thought he was gonna ask me to leave. And and he said, Have you considered teaching this work? And um, I was actually planning to go to law school at the time and had no intention of being a Pilates teacher, and it really wasn't even a career choice at the time. And um, I said, No, this is not, this is not part of the plan. And uh a couple of weeks later I called him and I said, you know, if I were to pursue this this route, how would I go about it? And he he became my mentor, my friend, and um, and again, I had no intention of carrying on this lineage and through um many, many conversations and years of working with him and traveling with him around the world and um really understanding his approach to Joe and Clara's teachings and method. Um, I not only uh fell in love with his approach, but understood the need to carry it forward and the need to keep his vision of this work alive and that it was a very important piece of the pie. Um I see it as one of the spokes on the wheel, and there aren't many spokes of you know, those who studied directly from the source. Uh our our tagline is evolved from the source. So this idea of classical and contemporary, you know, really doesn't speak to me. It's it's it's is it coming from the source and has it evolved as anything does naturally? And so, yes, I feel a tremendous responsibility, but also just um I've never lost the, as Ron would say, the geist, the the real um energy towards uh passing this work forward and seeing the ripple effect of of how lives are changed through through really teaching this work um individually, um as individuals need at a deep level. So yes, and responsibility blessing and and also um it keeps me alive, keeps me going.

SPEAKER_00

It's always great hearing these stories, isn't it? Like how there's a moment that you kind of go on a path that you had no idea was ever gonna happen and and how that all came about. Could you explain? You know, is Ron Fletcher's work different? You know, do you see it as different in any way? What makes it unique?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think that each of the different lineages and and we recognize uh five original lineages. There have been other many other people who studied with Joe and Clara, um, each has its own flavor, has its own, and a lot of it has to do with um the background of of the individual and whether they came from a modern dance background or more of a classical ballet background um or fitness and um why they ended up in Joe's studio in the first place. And Ron uh had he was he was with the Graham Company, he danced with Martha Graham. Um so he came more from that modern dance background and and he really s saw the correlation between what Joe was teaching and and what Martha Graham was teaching. And he saw uh he oftentimes talked about um comparing the the stomach massage, for example, to the gram contraction and that deep hollowing and and and um uh the breath and the belly and the back and how all of those work together. And there was there was a real organic quality to Ron's approach. Um, he was very true to what he learned from Joe and Clara. So this idea that he wasn't classical, um, it it makes me, you know, sort of giggle because when you're when you study with someone on and off for 20 years, um, that's classical, right? When you when you're with the source for that long. Um, so there there is a a just he he did have a distinct approach. It was a movement-based approach. Um, he linked one movement to another through movement. So it was never about the exercise, it was about the the continuum of movement through 50 minutes, an hour, three hours, you know, constant movement of breath. And um never eight of these and five of these and a hundred of these. It was it was there was uh an ebb and flow. And um and he did change the work to some extent in terms of adding a bit more dynamic. He focused, um, he heard Joe say, this work is about the breath. This work is about bringing the respiratory system and the circulatory system together. And um, and and Ron heard Joe say that. He read what Joe wrote in Return to Life, but Joe really didn't take the time to explain the breath. He didn't take the time to um he he wasn't a patient man, he wasn't a patient teacher, as many people have said. And um, so Ron decided, well, if if Joe said this work is about the breath, and that is really one of the guiding principles, um I'm gonna look into it. And that's that's part of what he did. And so the breath really became the drumbeat and became the music behind everything that we do. Um, so that's one of the the ways that uh Braun evolved the work, but very true to the source.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's been really interesting for me during this podcast project that started off as a small project, and now I'm nearly a year into her career, still going. But I'm loving hearing these conversations. And I think that idea of classical Pilates actually, you know, the source and there being different kinds of spokes of it coming out, and those people's the people they were that went in to meet Joe and Clara were different people coming out of it. And I think that's really interesting. It sort of showcases that there isn't this just one way that Joe taught. Like what I very much heard is that he taught the person in front of him and adapted it. And I wonder what you think about if you think about any of the the modern approach, is we're risking some of that source. Um, interestingly, you sort of talked about Ron did evolve it in his way already. So is it okay that we keep evolving it, or are we at risk there of changing it so much that it doesn't feel like the source anymore?

SPEAKER_02

Well, um, I think that anything that has life to it needs to evolve, but it needs to evolve from a very true foundation. And the issue is that um, well, first of all, the word classical, and I believe the first person to use the word classical was Peter Fiasca in um in developing a video series um years ago. And and I don't think that he intended to coin classical as classical versus something else. He was just trying to identify that what he was teaching was was from Romana, was from Joe, was was a lineage-based approach. Um uh each of the teachers who studied with Joe have a different version of classical. So Kathy Grant's approach and Corolla Trier's approach, and Eve Gentry's approach, and Ron Fletcher's approach, and Bruce King's approach, um uh are different. Um they they all, you know, they're they're they're there are deal breakers, is what I say. And you um, as different and Ron and Romana were, in many ways they had the same deal breakers. So if something wasn't coming from the center, if it wasn't developing the body and in um in a symmetrical way, if um if there if it wasn't breath-infused, um it wasn't Pilates, you know, it wasn't body contrology. And so I I I don't think that you can keep a method alive um without evolving it. But to evolve it from uh a place of of study and a place of depth and a place of understanding the roots of the work and this whole this whole idea of roots through the trunk, through the branches, through the leaves is how anything of substance evolves. And so if it doesn't have the foundation of the roots, um, and that's something that the PMA brought us is what are the roots of Pilates? You know, what bringing the different elders together to discuss what really makes this method unique and separates it from other methods. So both and instead of either or. And this whole idea of dividing the world the world between classical and contemporary, um, and I I know that Michael King spoke to this also. It's in in large part marketing. You know, in large part it's saying we're better than you. Um, but very few people can really identify what is classical. And to my way of thinking, anyone who studied and studied is more than a week, it's more than a year, it's it's it's decades. Anyone who studied with Joe and Clara is classical. And um and and what they carry forward is is classically rooted. Um, so those are a few of my thoughts on on the cell.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. And we're gonna talk more about that. I want to talk about you now. I wanna, you know, you mentioned a little bit before about you were working and you went to the studio. Tell me a little bit about when Pilates first came into your life. What was going on for you and how did Pilates first make you feel?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I was I was in New York um after college and I worked in the art world for several years. And um I I come from a family of artists. My father is a painter and a sculptor, my mother's a writer and a poet. And um I uh worked in museums and worked in galleries and directed a gallery then in Los Angeles, and um, but I was always into fitness. Uh danced as a child and was an athlete all through high school and college. And um, movement has always been a part of my life. And so um, when I moved to Los Angeles, I wanted to find something that, like I said, that I could carry on for the rest of my life. And um ended up in in the in in Ron studio with Diane Sabrino and Michael Podball and um other wonderful teachers. And it became my home away from home. And so I would go there every day after work. I went there Saturday mornings and took uh Diane's uh Diane's class, which was this amazing combination of the the 34 mat exercises with gram technique, and it was um just this it this otherworldly experience. And um and I again never thought that I would teach Pilates. There was, I I I thought this is something that I'll do. And I was planning to go back to New York to go to law school and go into art law. And um, and it was Ron, you had that conversation with Ron and sitting with him in that in that office in that studio in Denver, and I'll never forget. I mean, it's it's one of those defining moments in your life when you remember everything. You remember the, you know, the books on the shelves, you remembered, you know, the lighting in the room. And um, I and I I had goosebumps at the time because I knew that he was giving me an opportunity that I hadn't considered. And I knew that I was in uh the presence of genius, you know, someone who was at the top of their field and had experienced life and movement and um discipline and freedom at levels that I had never even considered. And um, that he was saying, this is something that you could do, and I'm inviting you into this world. And um, so that was that was how that was my entry point was through Ron Fletcher.

SPEAKER_00

And what was the format of that training?

SPEAKER_02

Well, there were there were no schools at the time. Um, the only school that I was aware of at the time was was the Pilates Center in Boulder. And they had just uh put their program together. And so when I called Fran, I said, Vraun, how how would I go about becoming a teacher? Um, if if I were to open a studio, dedicate my you know, my my life to this work, um, how would I go about that? And he said, Well, I'd like for you to go back to Los Angeles and learn this from Diane Sabrino. I'd like for you to learn um this from Barbara Huttner, who was one of his teachers in Denver at the time. I'd like for you to go to Houston and study with Elizabeth Jones. Um, there was a workshop with Alan Herdman, and um he encouraged me to take that. So he basically pieced together my education. And I was in touch with him two or three times a week through that process. And um, anytime he taught a workshop, I was there. So whether it was in Vale or Houston or Los Angeles, um, I would, I would show up. So basically it was getting on a plane um and and studying um very specifically with with different teachers and learning what Ron felt that I needed from each of them. So um Ron Fletcher was my mentor and he put together a program for me that um I I I look back on that time and I think how amazing was that that and and and also that I that I was able to follow his his advice. And were you still in the art gallery at this point doing this alongside it? Well, I was in Los Angeles and Carmen Keynesler, who was one of the founders of Canyon Ranch, um, contacted me and she said, uh, I'd like your help with with developing a Pilates program for for Canyon Ranch and also in Tucson. And um so I thought that was the perfect segue to leave Los Angeles, go back to New York, get back into in in into uh go go go to law school. And so I was um in LA when I first spoke with Ron and then uh segueing back to New York through through Tucson. And so um went to Tucson for what I thought was gonna be three months, and I've now lived there thirty-five years.

SPEAKER_00

And so what happened then? You were you know, you did you sort of trained in this way. Which sounds absolutely amazing. What would we give for that today? What happened next? What was the what was the role then from then on? Were you teaching? What what was the what was it like?

SPEAKER_02

I I started teaching um uh one person at a time. And each person I I worked with, I would, I would call Ron and get his advice, especially if they had physical issues. And um the whole time I was thinking, I'm gonna get back to the real world at some point. So I'm just gonna do this for a while, you know, it's this this um I still refer to my old job as my proper job, Korea, even to this day. And I really fell in love with teaching. And and I recognized not only the benefits to the individuals I was working with, but how it benefited their relationships, um their uh just their relationships with their with their husbands, with their wives, with their children. It gave them a sense of life, a return to life that that that um and and I found that I was gifted at it, you know, that I I um it was something that came naturally to me. Um seeing the body, seeing people walk in the room and innately understanding, um, even if I couldn't articulate it, uh what they needed and uh where the imbalances were. And um and I it became sort of like a puzzle, you know, to me. It became, you know, intellectually, it was like really looking at the body and and having that communication with the client and um and trying to understand where to start. You know, as as Ron said, when he started with Joe, he went because of his knee, but Joe didn't even look at his knee. It it had nothing to do with his knee, it had to do with with the fact that the the pelvis was was out of balance. And um so then I went to massage school. Um, and I went to massage school. Uh Chia Son at the time had one of the best massage programs in the country, thousand-hour program, um, not to become a massage therapist, but to really understand how to touch the body, um, how the body was put together. Um uh just understand scoliosis and understand um uh different types of um it it when you're working with someone who's hypermobile versus hypomobile, there's a different quality to the tissue. And um, so anyway, I went to massage school, continued teaching, and opened a small studio. And at the time it was one of the only studios, um, it was the only studio in southern Arizona. It was one of the only studios in Arizona. And people were coming to me from all around the state, and I no advertising. Um, I was working, I think, six days a week, nine hours a day, and had a wait list and um had this very small studio, and it was it, it, it, it just it, it became my um my calling. And um so still doing it today.

SPEAKER_00

Still doing it today. And so then when did the journey from there come to you then taking over Fletcher Pilates International? What were those conversations with Ron like?

SPEAKER_02

Well, um, I stayed in touch with him again, and I had um didn't really have a game plan. Um I just knew that I loved teaching, and I went from a very small private studio into more of a commercial space, um, had one assistant at a time, and eventually had five teachers. Um for a period of time I had teachers from other schools, other lineages, and uh wonderful teachers. But what I realized is that um it didn't spell mother, as Ron would say. You know, it didn't come together cohesively because each teacher had their own way of approaching the work, which which, you know, wonderful teachers, some from Michelle Larson, some from the Pilates Center. And so I realized, you know, if I really want to have uh a studio in this lineage of the work, there needs to be an education that that that um uh that supports that.

SPEAKER_00

Because I think that is such a challenge, isn't it, as a studio, and especially today with the amount of studios out there, is being clear on your ethos as a studio is one thing. And I don't think enough studio owners are reasonable clear on that. But then having the teachers that are supporting them, I I think there are too many studios sometimes that can feel like they're just taking qualified teachers on, and of course, each one, no matter how great they are, brings something different, perhaps from if they've been trained quite differently. So it's interesting that even at that point you were noticing that difference and it wasn't allowing you to kind of bring that ethos forward.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and and I didn't want to develop a studio where clients would only go to one teacher. And you know, it to me that's a hair salon. And um I wanted to have a studio where if, you know, if if whoever didn't come in that day, that they could go to another teacher and and it would be in sync.

SPEAKER_00

I think that's really important as a studio owner, actually. And I think I definitely fell into this trap where it felt like they were such and such a person's clients. And then when that teacher left, the client, you know, I learned that lesson early on in my studio ownership days. You want them, you know, now. I love the fact that when we get cover teachers, you know, clients will say, Oh, I love that. That was so interesting, you know, it felt a bit different, but they're not annoyed that that teacher wasn't there. I think that's such an important point to have that they will go to somebody else.

SPEAKER_02

You know, and and and the clients now and and then um would oftentimes come to me and say, you know, I was reluctant to go to this teacher, but um I learned so much. The cues were different. And and some I liked and some I didn't, but it was um, you know, what I wanted to do is is not develop a dependency on a teacher, but develop the studio as as a place where people came to to learn and came to move their bodies and created that space and time. Um and if you're having, if you have teachers who are coming from lots of different backgrounds and lots of different lineages, you you lack cohesion. And so I don't want cookie cut-cutter teachers. I don't want a cookie-cutter method, and you do eight of these and five of these and a hundred of these, but there has to be a certain common language. And so I went to Ron and I said, you know, for your work to stay alive and frankly for me to develop a business around um your approach to the method, we need an educational foundation. And he was very reluctant. And he said, because he came from the culture of apprenticeship, you learn by through ongoing study, long-term study, and you're chosen. Um, you're chosen to teach. And it took, it took actually several years for of conversations with Ron, three or four years. Um, Ron, your work will die with with you unless we develop a program. And and so he he said, um, if you can get, if you can bring together people who've studied with me for for a long time, what he considered his senior teachers, and you can uh through consensus um come up with with a basic plan that I can review, I'll look at it. And so um we gathered a group of, I think there were four or five of us, and um went into a lockdown meeting for it was two or three days, and we each came with notes of of what we thought the program could and should be. And um, and at the end of that that time, um presented our our thoughts to Braun and waited, waited, and um he came back and he said, Well, this is a good start. This is this is a good start. And so he gave us basically the green light to move forward. And there were three of us who decided to um form a partnership and uh develop a program. And um, and he uh he looked at each piece of it. And that's that's one of the um, I think miraculous things about the the Fletcher Pilates School is that Ron was involved in the development of every part of the program, everything from the mission statement. Um he looked at um the lists of exercises, the photographs that we chose to identify each of the exercises, the breath patterns. Um uh and he would oftentimes say, uh, you know, this needs to be added, this needs to be subtracted, this is a keeper, this isn't, this is what Joe said, this is what Clara said. And so we had that gift of Ron being uh intimately involved in the development of our program through every step of the process. He would go to sleep reading our manuals.

SPEAKER_01

He would call me the next morning and say, Kiriya, this this needs to be changed. I was like, okay. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I mean, what kind of when you start, you know, at this point, there's nothing written down. You're working from you'd learn in your way in that kind of apprenticeship model. Where does one start? What do you, what did you feel then were the key components to a teacher training? And has that evolved as your thinking evolved on that as time's gone on?

SPEAKER_02

Well, we had what we we I wish you could have seen, and I wish we had taken pictures of it. We sat in a room, this this room, and it was covered with post-its. And we had all of Joe's work, you know, which is fairly easy to identify the pieces on the reformer. We call them pieces of movement instead of exercises. That's one of the things that things that sort of makes people giggle. Um uh on the Cadillac, on the chair. Um, and and there was there's a commonality from Ron to Romana to Eve to Carolla. So we have all of the classical pieces. I was also um on the Pilates Method Alliance board at the time, and so in conversations uh with other board members about what constituted um classical Pilates, what the what the pieces were. Um so we had all of those exercises, and then we had Ron's variations, so what we call Fletcher variations um on each of the uh different apparatus. And then we had the Fletcher techniques, uh the Fletcher Tal work, the Fletcher Bar approach. Ron was the first to bring bar work into a Pilates setting, um, the Fletcher floor work, which is very much based on the gram floor technique. So we had um what came from Joe and Clara, we had Ron's evolution of what came from Joe and Clara, and then we had Ron's distinct techniques that he developed to support the Pilates method. He didn't develop these techniques to put his stamp on things. Um, each of these techniques came organically uh from the roots of Joe and Clara, so that the towel work to develop more articulation, um uh precision and stability through the upper body. The bar work is to bring more definition to the lower body, especially in standing, um, but very much from a from a plot from a Plotties foundation. And then the floor work was really an evolution, taking the matte work more um more three-dimensional, more circular, uh, a bit more organic, because the matte work can be somewhat linear. And and so we had post-its everywhere. And then we thought, how do we put these, how do we make sense of this? How do we make sense of all of this material? How do we stay true to Joe, stay true to Clara? And Ron kept Clara's name alive. Ron single-handedly kept Clara's name alive. When the Pilates Method Alliance was developed, it was Joseph Pilates, Joe this, Joe that. And Ron said, no, it was Joe and Clara. Joe was the genius and Clara was the teacher. Clara was the one who kept the studio humming along. She took the time to explain the work, um, and she taught the work in a very um quiet way. Um, never did the work, but um, she was, and so stayed true to Joe and Clara, um, kept Ron's variations alive, and then brought the techniques that he developed into our education, into our school. And so um it was overwhelming, you know, it was it was really overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00

You can imagine. I mean, it's a lot, isn't it, to kind of try and distill this into how do we teach people? Because I need teachers in my studio.

SPEAKER_02

It started from that and it turned into a much bigger project. And um, and so I I woke up one day and I um Ron was an alcoholic, and um he he oftentimes claimed, told us that the 12-step program, Alcoholics Anonymous, is is what saved him. And um I woke up one day and I said we should base our program on the 12 steps. So um, and that's that that became the framework. I I I spoke with Ron about it. He loved it. So we have 12 steps in level one, and we have 12 steps in level two, 12 steps, so it ends up being 24 steps, and we cheated on some. So we we put seven steps under, like maybe step 10. Um, but the whole the whole program is based on the 12 steps, and that the idea is is that it takes that discipline of working through the steps to to achieve freedom, but it also is transformation. The the 12 steps are transformational. And so that idea that um you can't skip a step, you know, you you you really have to go through the process. And when you do go through the process, the more advanced work actually becomes freeing, you know, becomes more liberating.

SPEAKER_00

And I always think it's really interesting. You mentioned before how often people talk about either in their own experience, or you talked about it about clients, where clients will talk about these transformations less about their body, which kind of does happen as well, but more about their lives, their marriage, their happiness, you know, their sense of purpose. I don't know any other modality where people, that's the first thing they talk about. And it is just always amazes me, and that's been my story too. It's just the most joyful thing as a teacher to see people, I don't know, getting in touch with themselves. So it's it's interesting to think about how you then created that framework around those pieces of movement, as you said, but that still allow the depth of this work and the feelings that you get to come to life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's body, mind, spirit. And you don't get to the spirit until you free the body and and connect the mind. And um the spirit is not the goal, the spirit is the end result. And so people often talk about the Pilates principles, the Pilates movement principles, and and spirit is sometimes one of the principles. Um spirit is what brings it all together. And uh when we were putting together our list of principles, one of the things that that that gave me goosebumps is um we we included with breath and we included spirit as as principles in two different dictionaries, spirit and breath, had the same, the the verbatim, the same definition. And without breath, there's no spirit. And and breath to me is um Ron oftentimes said, breath is the core of the body. It's not the transverse abdominus and the multifidae and the pelvic floor and the diaphragm. The the body floats on the breath. And and without the breath, we don't have a core, we don't have a center. And um so the the breath is is the magic sauce, it's the sacred ingredient. And um and yet the distinction between Pilates and yoga is is vast, it's huge. Um yoga is a spiritual practice as it as it came about in India. It's it it's to to free the body so that you can be in touch with the spirit. Whereas Pilates is very much of a physical practice and and it's very much of a Western-based um initiated practice. The end result is also spirit, because once you once you free the body, you free the you know the the of the concerns of the aches and pains of uh wear and tear, um, you're able to be more one with others and and to to think differently and to approach life differently.

SPEAKER_00

So you've explained that so beautifully. My my studios are called Soul Pilates Kirier because I think Pilates was I I felt like it made me fee understand my soul and my purpose and what I realized I was here to do. And I was so grateful for that. And you've explained that so beautifully of how we kind of get there. Because it's it is interesting, isn't it? How, you know, different, you know, it's age or question, you know, we don't get it so much anymore. But like 10 years ago, you know, you'd get people saying, Is Pilates the same as yoga? I still get it in taxis sometimes. You're like, this is a very long answer. I don't think I can explain it in a taxi ride to you.

SPEAKER_02

I think just going back to the intention of yoga, which has been lost in in the United States, it's been lost in Europe. Um the original and it's become a physical practice, which it wasn't you know intended to be. And the intention of Pilates is a physical practice. And um, you know, they both ideally lead to uh more cohesive mind-body um spiritual connection. But the the the the initial intention is different. And um that's one of the things I like about Pilates is that it is what it is. It's not pretending to be something that it's not, and you're not taking something from the east and superimposing it on the west. It's it's um, you know, it's very much, you know, bringing the body back to harmony, bringing the body back to center. And um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I love that such a yeah. I'd love to talk to you, Kiriya, around education. So interesting to hear your story. I hadn't realized that about you know how you'd literally sat in a room full of post-it notes and thought, how do we turn this into a training? And you have now been, you know, looking at training standards and across the whole industry for a long time. What do you think defines a high quality Pilates teacher training program?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I have. I I was uh chaired the National Pilates certification program for several years, um uh both when it was part of the the PMA and then when it when it separated from the PMA. Um and education is key, and education has been watered down, education has um it's been piecemealed. And what happens is that when you don't start again with a foundation, it's it's very difficult to to recreate that. Once someone has a piece of paper that that says they're a Pilates teacher, um, they really don't oftentimes have the incentive to really become a Pilates teacher. And so there's this idea of I'm a Pilates teacher. Okay, well, um it's not it's not one apparatus, it's not the performer.

SPEAKER_00

I think what you realize is the the greats out there, including yourself, they're always learning. And I was trained to realize that that certificate was is the beginning. Um and I meet lots of people to your point, it's like they've got their qualification and they think that's the end. And even the the really in-depth trainings, I think all they do is give you a base level.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's comprehensive education versus continuing education. And comprehensive um ideally starts with a matwork. So ideally understanding that it's not about the apparatus, it's not about um getting on a piece of equipment. There's an As Ron used to say, this apparatus is your partner. There's nothing magic about sitting down on the reformer. So really understanding the work and how the work uh benefits plays out. How you approach the work without the apparatus, I think is really important to keep it simple, keep it simple, stupid. And starting with the mount work, starting with the breath, starting with uh each program that's that's a program of substance and quality has has a pre-Pilates component. So what are the building blocks that get you to um being able to articulate your spine? Um it's the it's it's not about going into the hundred and the roll-up and the rollover. It's it's how do you how do you develop those techniques in your body? So um having the the mat work is the foundation, um, understanding why Joe developed the performer and the chair and the spine corrector and the guillotine tower and the Cadillac. And um the idea that that if if the body, if it's if if if a movement's difficult on one apparatus, that maybe it's more available someplace else. And um, and that's the whole idea of comprehensive, that it's um it's almost like a laboratory. You know, the the the Pilates Studio is almost like a laboratory where um you know the swan can be performed on the performer five different ways on the Cablock. Um, and and again, that makes it really interesting, both for the client and the teacher, to have all of these different tools at your disposal. And so the idea of comprehensive, and and it can be comprehensive at a certain level. It doesn't have to be um, you know, beginning, intermediate, advanced, but at least there's a foundation of understanding the different apparatus, understanding the mat work, and really that everything comes from the Pilates principles, everything comes from breath, everything comes from moving from your center, everything comes from uniform muscular development. Um, and and that those are sort of that that's the conversation you're having as a teacher. It's not about what exercise comes next and about the choreography. And it's it is um, it's sad. It's sad that that's what it's come to. You know, it's sad that that that Pilates is uh putting 12 reformers in a room and um and you're doing Pilates. Um that's happening everywhere in the world. And I don't know how to um I don't know how to combat that.

SPEAKER_00

Do you think then that teachers really the focus should be on comprehensively training teachers, even if they're going to be predominantly teaching reformer classes?

SPEAKER_02

I think there there should be a level of I I don't know that we can fight the the I don't know what we call the the the the reformer revolution. I don't know that we can um combat that at this point. Um I think at some point there they're gonna be a lot of reformers on the market. Um, and I I think that um, but maybe five years from now. Um, yes, I think that there should be a foundational education that at least touches on the different pieces of equipment and that starts with um the bout work. The mount work is is the foundation.

SPEAKER_00

You've obviously been part of the PMA and the National Pilates certification program and looking at standards. And this is a challenge, isn't it? You know, when we were all allowed to use Pilates as a generic term, this kind of then opened the idea that anyone could do this. And there are plenty of people out there who've written courses and they are really trying to do all the things that you've said. And there are other people where they can do a two-day, a four-day. I even heard somebody tell me there's a four-hour course, and you're, you know, you get the certificate at the end of it. What can we do? Because it's I get asked this a lot. What can we do to try and shoe up standards? Some countries like Australia have tried to put in some things, other countries less so. And there is a real mix, isn't there, all over the world as well? And I always think the challenge is that Pilates is kind of cool Pilates, like the yoga world at least tried to give things names. So, you know, there's 15 studios now in my city, and trust me, each one of them is very, very different in style. But to the client out there, they think it's all the same. So, how do we start to think about combating this? Or can we? I talked to Brent Anderson in the episode that I had with him, and he was kind of saying, I'm not sure there is the opportunity for accreditation in that sort of formal way, but maybe we could create some guidelines that people could adhere to and say that they've adhered to. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think that having the the MPCP, the certification is important. I think establishing what those standards are. Um there are hundreds of teachers, if not thousands of teachers who who've embraced that idea and that message. And the the MPCP is the only organization in the world that has really um established standards that are to some extent embraced worldwide. Um I know that that Australia has um has has established its own standards. Um I believe the UK has, um the UAE to some extent has followed the the UK standards. Um and I I think the only way to combat it is to educate the public about the difference uh between a comprehensively educated teacher. If you're gonna spend hours of your life and time is more valuable than money, and hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on your physical well-being, um educate yourself on who you're going to. And it's up to us to educate the public, not um not classical versus contemporary, but comprehensively educated versus um not. And so if the demand is there from the public, um I think that's the only way to to change. I I don't think it's about um uh messaging the Pilates community. I I think people are educating themselves based on the job. So they're they're wanting to become a former teacher because they want that job in the in the reformer studio. Um, but I do think that there is a groundswell of interest. I think that people, teachers are realizing that they don't know enough. And so there's this hunger for knowledge. And if I'm going to spend my life working with bodies and in in a in a physical therapy related field, um, I need more knowledge. And and it's not about the exercises, it's it's about working with the individual, it's about affecting change, it's about um transforming bodies and constantly raising the bar in terms of what's possible physically. Um but ultimately I think the only way realistically to lead to a change and to combat what's happening now, which it sort of came about during COVID. And and I don't know why, but it's like this reformers just started appearing. Um, and and part of it is club Pilates, you know, that that was a successful model. And so a lot of businesses are modeling um themselves on Club Pilates, which is not a terribly bad thing. Um, I think it it needs to come from the public. I think there needs to be a demand from the public if I'm gonna spend three hours of my life a week um doing Pilates and however much money that entails, um, I I need to go choose someone who knows what they who knows the method and and can actually give me more than I could get by going to the average gym.

SPEAKER_00

Could you explain to me, Kira, for people who don't know, the MPCP program, how does that work? Is it that you've got a qualification and now you can apply to do it, or is it that the teacher training schools have to apply to do it?

SPEAKER_02

It's the the the standard is 450 hours. So you you have to have gone through a 450-hour program that that is uh a comprehensive program, and there are two different uh certificates. One is for a MATWORK teacher and one is for a comprehensively educated teacher. Um there were um we had several uh I forget what they were called, uh gatherings of educators from from everyone from Ballast Body to Polestar to Stott to Um Fletcher to the Pilates Center. Um I think we got together three or four times um uh in in in in think tech think tank um uh uh two-day I it was I I I and I I forget what they were called. They weren't salons, they weren't forums, um, and came up with standards. And we came up with standards for um the number of hours of education, uh what needed to be included in the education, everything from observation hours to casework hours. And so a lot of thought went into the development of the criteria uh to sit for the exam. Um the exam itself, both the comprehensive exam and the the matwork exam have been vetted by virtually every major program, every lineage. And it would be impossible, I think, to recreate that process. It's been going on for decades now. Um the the exams have uh every seven years they go through basically uh a rehaul and um hundreds of thousands of dollars in in that process. And so the MPCP is the only organization in the world that has undertaken that process um worldwide with each lineage, with every school, and and really has come up with um a common denominator um for what is Pilates and what is a Pilates teacher, looking at type of education, what's what's included in that education, number of hours, um, and and every aspect of it. And so it's not establishing the highest standard, it's establishing a baseline standard for a comprehensively educated teacher, both uh comprehensive and a matwork teacher. And um it like I said, I think it would be virtually impossible um time-wise uh uh in in terms of um those who are involved and and and and the financial uh to to recreate that process.

SPEAKER_00

So if I had in terms of the guidelines that are out there, if you have written a course, I'm guessing that you would want to do your best to follow those guidelines. That would be a really solid start. And is it then that this course has some sort of accreditation from you, or is it that if I have done a course like that, I can then do an exam? Is that how it works?

SPEAKER_02

So none of the programs or schools in existence have been accredited. And um, some of them have been state licensed, but national accreditation is is a separate process. So to um the PMA at one point had put together a list of accredited schools, but the PMA is not a body that can accredit schools uh legally. And so there are accrediting bodies for schools um and and not one school in the United States is accredited. Um the PMA is is not the PMA, the MPCP is is accredited, third-party accredited, and um has established standards for schools. And the the schools that meet those standards, um, the the students who graduate from those schools can sit for the MPCP exam. And so the MPCP does have a list of schools that they that um that meets the standards. Um they don't publish that list of schools, but anyone who applies to uh sit for the exam who who've been through, say, the Pilates Center or um Polestar uh comprehensive education, um they're allowed to sit for the exam because they've they've completed that education. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, that does answer because I think it's it's good for because I hadn't heard of this until quite recently myself. Um and I think it's it's an interesting, it's it's it's an interesting way of doing it, isn't it, to kind of create these guidelines and then it's for people listening to understand, okay, I've I've trained with Polestar or I've trained with one of these. Can I now do that? So that makes sense. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'd love to just think about the future of Pilates. What excites you about the future of Pilates, Kiriya?

SPEAKER_02

What excites me is people taking uh ownership of their bodies. Um it's it's um going back to what Joe said is that the the Pilates is really about creating independence. It's not about dependence, it's about understanding um how our bodies are are strung together, um, getting away from uh the purely physical, aesthetic uh approach to fitness, and and really um thinking of this more from a wellness perspective. It's it's and and thinking about movement from the inside out. So what excites me is is changing um how we approach our our bodies, um how we love our bodies, how we care for our bodies, this is all we have to go through life with. We have, as Ron would say, we have these 70 trillion cells, and this is it. It's it's not what we put on our bodies, it's um it's not the exterior, it's the interior, it's the interior. And so I think if if through Pilates, and this is high in the sky, but if through Pilates we can give people more ownership of their bodies, if we can give them more a sense of you can take control of this one organism that you have, you can love it, you can cherish it, and you can nurture it. And um, through movement, um uh you can actually sustain much longer than than um maybe you thought possible. So I don't know if that's kumbay. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00

And what can and what concerns you about the direction that Pilates is going? Is there anything that concerns you?

SPEAKER_02

It's become very much external and it's it's become um quick quick fix and um and I I don't know. I I I I see these these Pilates studios even in Tucson that are cropping up just sort of overnight. Um there's a gentleman from out of town who's opening three Pilates studios in in Tucson, and I'm thinking, where do those teachers come from? You know, it's like so um and I'm hoping that that trend goes away. So I'm hoping that we can get back to um, you know, working with one person at a time or working with small groups of people and um giving people a sense of that this is a method and a discipline and and something that that you get to do that you don't have to do, and and something that you can carry with you for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_00

If you've listened to any of the episodes, you'll hear me talk about this sometimes. This sort of aesthetic marketing of Pilates does get get to be cross sometimes because it's very a certain type of white woman, usually wearing a twin set of something looking a certain way. And it's not to say that Pilates can't make you look great. I think there's lots of people who can prove that, but it just does something much more deeper than that. And it's it's a challenge, isn't it, actually? Because to market the soul in my soul Pilates is actually quite tricky in an industry that is very aesthetically driven. So yeah, great points that you made there, Kira. To end our conversations, we always have some quickish fire questions at the end. Is that all right? Um, I'd like to start with Kira. What's the Pilates exercise you go back to again and again?

SPEAKER_02

Um, well, two. I I love the if I'm just gonna hop on the the machine, the the short spine stretch. I think a lot of people feel that way. And and full extension on the spine corrector. So if I'm gonna do two things, it would be the short spine stretch and full extension on the spine corrector.

SPEAKER_00

I absolutely hear you with those two. Is there a cue that you find yourself coming back to again and again? Breath, belly, back.

SPEAKER_02

Breath to the belly to the back, and and in that order. It's find your breath to find your belly to articulate your back. Literally doing it as you say it.

SPEAKER_00

Um what quality do you think makes a truly great Pilates teacher?

SPEAKER_02

Well, this this ability to be both empathetic and also maintain boundaries. So to really get in sync with that person in front of you, but also maintain very distinct boundaries so that it you don't lose yourself in that process.

SPEAKER_00

And what gift has Pilates given you personally, Kira?

SPEAKER_02

Um, a sense of purpose, uh, a sense of center, um uh uh a holistic approach to who I am, what I do in life.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Kira, I've enjoyed this conversation uh so much. It's been wonderful to hear your story, the story of Ron Fletcher. Um, if people want to work with you, I'm guessing they, you know, they work with you and your organization through the Fletcher Party site. They can find you. We'll put some links in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02

Wonderful, Nick. Well, thank you so much for this opportunity. I've really enjoyed our time and look forward to meeting you in person.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, let's try and meet in person soon. It's been a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Nick. A big thank you to Kiria for joining me today for this conversation. What I loved about today's episode was the opportunity to hear from someone who has such a deep connection to the history of the Pilates method. Conversations like this remind us that Pilates isn't just a set of exercises, it's a lineage of ideas, teachers, and philosophies that continue to evolve with each generation. I think it's been great for me also to learn that classical is quite a broad term, actually, and thinking about the different lineages and then thinking about teaching standards and how the education in our world is really powerful. I hope you've enjoyed today's conversation, and I look forward to speaking to you next week.